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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Mar 9, 2024 14:50:27 GMT -5
But you can't actually quantify that. You're speaking about a nebulously defined, conceptual group who would watch AEW if not for A Thing, and authoritatively stating what that thing is, as one single thing. It's reductive to say AEW doesn't have characters being characters, for that matter, but it's even more reductive to nail down one single thing and to say that that's what the people want. Even if you aren't privileging their theoretical enjoyment and demanding AEW change like others are, there's still a world of mass assumptions there that don't have any backing to them. It's just vibes. It's just someone's perceived vibe based off their taste being presented as somehow representiative of a silent majority. It's not about AEW. It's about the industry in general. And just to show that I don't think the casual fan argument is some sort of AEW hit piece, think about this. When were the boom periods in this industry's history? How many 5 star classics were had on Prime time, superstars, wrestling challenge, nitro, saturday night, early and attitude era RAW? It was about the TV show and celebrity like characters. Hell why hasn't WWE ever really seem to recapture the "hot shit" aura they once had? You can be the best wrestlers in the world imo. Casuals want celebrity like figures with schtick. But is it possible, perhaps, that what worked on television literally 25 years ago, is not a reflection of modern taste? Because what worked in the Attitude Era is not what worked during Rock and Wrestling, in turn. There may not in fact be an audience who wants to watch a wrestling show that doesn't have a lot of wrestling and has characters and has heretofore been repelled by too much wrestling and too many wrestles good men. Wrestling had its moment in the spotlight and then people moved on, and the people who are left are the actual, substantial volume of people who want to watch wrestling. That wrestling has to settle for "only" being a top cable ratings earner on multiple nights of the week, without an untapped market of people waiting in the wings for it to adapt to the tastes of a quarter century ago. There is no proof this group exists.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Mar 9, 2024 15:12:00 GMT -5
It's not about AEW. It's about the industry in general. And just to show that I don't think the casual fan argument is some sort of AEW hit piece, think about this. When were the boom periods in this industry's history? How many 5 star classics were had on Prime time, superstars, wrestling challenge, nitro, saturday night, early and attitude era RAW? It was about the TV show and celebrity like characters. Hell why hasn't WWE ever really seem to recapture the "hot shit" aura they once had? You can be the best wrestlers in the world imo. Casuals want celebrity like figures with schtick. But is it possible, perhaps, that what worked on television literally 25 years ago, is not a reflection of modern taste? Because what worked in the Attitude Era is not what worked during Rock and Wrestling, in turn. There may not in fact be an audience who wants to watch a wrestling show that doesn't have a lot of wrestling and has characters and has heretofore been repelled by too much wrestling and too many wrestles good men. Wrestling had its moment in the spotlight and then people moved on, and the people who are left are the actual, substantial volume of people who want to watch wrestling. That wrestling has to settle for "only" being a top cable ratings earner on multiple nights of the week, without an untapped market of people waiting in the wings for it to adapt to the tastes of a quarter century ago. There is no proof this group existsWhy does The Rock, “Mr Self-Indulgent Wrestlemania wrecker” still outpop everyone by a large margin? Dude spoke for 45 minutes and the show drew around 2.5 million viewers. You don’t have to be defensive of a style that nobody is attacking
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Post by Cyno on Mar 9, 2024 15:26:08 GMT -5
Because he's The Rock and he can get away with it. Anyone in AEW tries to do what he did, the show would rightfully be blasted.
Also, the Rock's 45 minute promo episode did about 2.35 million viewers according to Fightful, which isn't a big increase from the week before (2.27 million; a difference of about 80k people). And these numbers are pretty much within the normal range of Smackdown's viewership since the current boom period started around August 2022: usually fluctuating between 2-2.5 million, with some going a little higher and some a little lower than that. Like it's not chasing people away, but it's also not getting a whole lot of new people tuning in either. Just happens that WWE's base audience is a lot larger than AEW's, which makes sense.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Mar 9, 2024 15:37:23 GMT -5
Because he's The Rock and he can get away with it. Anyone in AEW tries to do what he did, the show would rightfully be blasted. Also, the Rock's 45 minute promo episode did about 2.35 million viewers according to Fightful, which isn't a big increase from the week before (2.27 million; a difference of about 80k people). And these numbers are pretty much within the normal range of Smackdown's viewership since the current boom period started around August 2022: usually fluctuating between 2-2.5 million, with some going a little higher and some a little lower than that. Like it's not chasing people away, but it's also not getting a whole lot of new people tuning in either. Just happens that WWE's base audience is a lot larger than AEW's, which makes sense. Thanks for the polite reply But that all comes back around to my point. Why aren’t new people tuning in? For both companies? The casual fan finds it unappealing. Now we can say WWE’s base is bigger that’s a given, but ratings pop up and merchandise numbers go up for guys who are characters and are more than just great wrestlers.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 9, 2024 15:48:56 GMT -5
Because he's The Rock and he can get away with it. Anyone in AEW tries to do what he did, the show would rightfully be blasted. Also, the Rock's 45 minute promo episode did about 2.35 million viewers according to Fightful, which isn't a big increase from the week before (2.27 million; a difference of about 80k people). And these numbers are pretty much within the normal range of Smackdown's viewership since the current boom period started around August 2022: usually fluctuating between 2-2.5 million, with some going a little higher and some a little lower than that. Like it's not chasing people away, but it's also not getting a whole lot of new people tuning in either. Just happens that WWE's base audience is a lot larger than AEW's, which makes sense. Thanks for the polite reply But that all comes back around to my point. Why aren’t new people tuning in? For both companies? The casual fan finds it unappealing. Now we can say WWE’s base is bigger that’s a given, but ratings pop up and merchandise numbers go up for guys who are characters and are more than just great wrestlers. This statement comes off like you've ignored the last few paragraphs about quantifying a "casual fan" and what they actually like and don't like about wrestling. Like how do you know they find shit unappealing?? Why do people constantly speak for the "Casual fan" while providing no proof about what they like or don't like outside of a Nielson cable number that literally is the way it is for a dozen reasons before a mythical casual fan might find shit unappealing.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Mar 9, 2024 15:54:53 GMT -5
But is it possible, perhaps, that what worked on television literally 25 years ago, is not a reflection of modern taste? Because what worked in the Attitude Era is not what worked during Rock and Wrestling, in turn. There may not in fact be an audience who wants to watch a wrestling show that doesn't have a lot of wrestling and has characters and has heretofore been repelled by too much wrestling and too many wrestles good men. Wrestling had its moment in the spotlight and then people moved on, and the people who are left are the actual, substantial volume of people who want to watch wrestling. That wrestling has to settle for "only" being a top cable ratings earner on multiple nights of the week, without an untapped market of people waiting in the wings for it to adapt to the tastes of a quarter century ago. There is no proof this group existsWhy does The Rock, “Mr Self-Indulgent Wrestlemania wrecker” still outpop everyone by a large margin? Dude spoke for 45 minutes and the show drew around 2.5 million viewers. You don’t have to be defensive of a style that nobody is attacking It's not being defensive of a style, it's pointing out that people speak with total confidence about something that doesn't actually track. The Rock outpops people because he's a big star, part time, and a nostalgia act. When Hulk Hogan showed up long after the '80s, he continued to get big reactions, but Vince's attempts to remake Hulk Hogan in the '90s all failed. People want The Rock because he's a big star, but that doesn't mean there's tons of people who would be into wrestling if they just redid The Rock again. That's the part where there's no connective tissue to prove any of it. Because he's The Rock and he can get away with it. Anyone in AEW tries to do what he did, the show would rightfully be blasted. Also, the Rock's 45 minute promo episode did about 2.35 million viewers according to Fightful, which isn't a big increase from the week before (2.27 million; a difference of about 80k people). And these numbers are pretty much within the normal range of Smackdown's viewership since the current boom period started around August 2022: usually fluctuating between 2-2.5 million, with some going a little higher and some a little lower than that. Like it's not chasing people away, but it's also not getting a whole lot of new people tuning in either. Just happens that WWE's base audience is a lot larger than AEW's, which makes sense. Thanks for the polite reply But that all comes back around to my point. Why aren’t new people tuning in? For both companies? The casual fan finds it unappealing. Now we can say WWE’s base is bigger that’s a given, but ratings pop up and merchandise numbers go up for guys who are characters and are more than just great wrestlers. New people are tuning in. Dynamite and Raw are top cable earners every week. 2.X million people watch Smackdown every week. These are strong performing shows with people under 50 on a medium rapidly being overtaken by news pundits in the ratings because the television audience is aging out. New people are tuning in, but the numbers people look at from a quarter century ago are not the numbers that anything is going to get nowadays. Like, one of the big flaws in the whole 'casual fans are tuned out' argument is that wrestling is doing great, entertainment is just massively fractionalized and almost nothing can be a long-term, year-round pop culture zeitgeist. New people tune in regularly. I know people who have become new fans of wrestling in the past five years. New fans AEW created. But the audience who tuned in, again, a quarter of a century ago, moved on. The post-Attitude Era time bled them out and they went to find other things to be into, we didn't go overnight into workrate, long matches, and shootfight characters; those were adaptations WWE made to capture the tastes of the wrestling fans who remained. This is the normal, healthy cycle of media and the fact wrestling is doing so strong on the back of the format they have makes it insane to me to claim there's any sort of audience issue the whole of wrestling is failing to overcome.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by fw91 on Mar 9, 2024 15:56:54 GMT -5
Thanks for the polite reply But that all comes back around to my point. Why aren’t new people tuning in? For both companies? The casual fan finds it unappealing. Now we can say WWE’s base is bigger that’s a given, but ratings pop up and merchandise numbers go up for guys who are characters and are more than just great wrestlers. This statement comes off like you've ignored the last few paragraphs about quantifying a "casual fan" and what they actually like and don't like about wrestling. Like how do you know they find shit unappealing?? Why do people constantly speak for the "Casual fan" while providing no proof about what they like or don't like outside of a Nielson cable number that literally is the way it is for a dozen reasons before a mythical casual fan might find shit unappealing. Because think about it, and I’ll ignore AEW for a moment. When WWE was doing really bad in recent years . When were ratings up? The bases will always cover a certain number but what’s the difference between let’s say 1.5-2.0 episode of WWE and a 2.0-2.7 episode? That has to be the casual influence
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Post by Cyno on Mar 9, 2024 16:07:36 GMT -5
You could also attribute that to lapsed fans who were completely tuned out on Vince's fingerprints being all over the product. WWE in this current period isn't just popular with the WWE faithful, but smarks who find Triple H's creative vision a lot more appealing than Vince's. That in turn creates a more positive buzz around the company outside of the Roman Reigns avatar brigade echo chambers.
Like WWE won "Best Promotion" from the Observer Awards for the first time since 2000. That's the most diehard of diehard wrestling fans.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Mar 9, 2024 16:17:20 GMT -5
You could also attribute that to lapsed fans who were completely tuned out on Vince's fingerprints being all over the product. WWE in this current period isn't just popular with the WWE faithful, but smarks who find Triple H's creative vision a lot more appealing than Vince's. That in turn creates a more positive buzz around the company outside of the Roman Reigns avatar brigade echo chambers. Like WWE won "Best Promotion" from the Observer Awards for the first time since 2000. That's the most diehard of diehard wrestling fans. Triple H's WWE that very specifically features lengthy matches and huge pushes for characters like Gunther. There's so many complicated factors going in to any given wrestleshow, and so many diverse wants and desires from an audience. The dichotomy of 'have wrestling vs. have character' is one we as a culture should have been able to progress past, because it's not really the truth it's portrayed as. The key to having a successful wrestling show people tune in to is often just to intangibly 'be good', something that has no simple one-size-fits-all solution, and something where a lot of decisions being made may not be mutually exclusive for most people, but will catch fringes who don't see what they want in a show. WWE shed a lot of its greatest sins in the transition to Triple H's creative and a lot of WWE fans, returned or who never left, have sang the praises of an improved WWE freed from a lot of its baggage. But that's a big net full of lots of people. Tons of people. Too many types of people. Everyone on this forum is their own bespoke type of guy, but that doesn't mean that outside of the fandom's walls there is this singular, amorphous blob of one type of guy who just wants one thing and would love to be into wrestling again if it got that thing.
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Zone Was Wrong
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Mar 9, 2024 16:33:16 GMT -5
Figured I'd see why this is the thread here given the most traction in the AEW section lately. It's about what I figured it would be. The usual arguments that come out that when there's a lower rating, the kind that are not usually found if they're in the mid to higher 800K like they normally are. Figured these threads should just bugger off after the first Mothman post tbh lol
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SneakMan
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Post by SneakMan on Mar 9, 2024 16:53:57 GMT -5
Figured I'd see why this is the thread here given the most traction in the AEW section lately. It's about what I figured it would be. The usual arguments that come out that when there's a lower rating, the kind that are not usually found if they're in the mid to higher 800K like they normally are. Figured these threads should just bugger off after the first Mothman post tbh lol Honestly I’m all for there being a single, stickied “AEW Ratings and Business Discussion” thread and confining all that type of chat there. Mothman could even do their doomer posts if they want when a particular rating is low, another sign of the Fall of the House of Khan.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Mar 9, 2024 17:42:02 GMT -5
Bad rating. Shit happens.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 9, 2024 17:54:56 GMT -5
Figured I'd see why this is the thread here given the most traction in the AEW section lately. It's about what I figured it would be. The usual arguments that come out that when there's a lower rating, the kind that are not usually found if they're in the mid to higher 800K like they normally are. Figured these threads should just bugger off after the first Mothman post tbh lol It is kind of impressive how lower than usual rating equals 7 pages of weird discourse while normal or higher rating equals 1 page of like... nothing. Really puts a damper on the narratives people wanna push about the show, a wrestler, or a potential issue when the ratings are normal it feels like.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 9, 2024 18:39:45 GMT -5
we should be complaining about UK and ftr instead! I call dibs on FTR! Who wants to nab UK? You can’t have Eddie Kingston or Yuta, they’re *my* punching bags.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Mar 9, 2024 20:17:01 GMT -5
So coming off a hot as hell, all timer of a PPV that drew over 16,000 in one of the biggest arenas of its type in the country that (apparently) drew $1 million+ at the gate…Sith nothing but glowing praise from everyone besides to most Deranged corners of Wrestling Internet….in a time where “we’re back!” has been bandied about over and over by long term fans who have ridden the highs and lows of this company for almost 5 years…AND adding, an internationally loved literal wrestling GOD….we’re back to what exactly? Debating “why don’t they book for the casual fan?!” (What the f*** is a casual ass fan in 2024 anyway? Jesus 🤦🏼♂️) Putting the company back on life support/ death watch?? The only good thing about these threads is Mothman’s post. Other than that they serve no purpose. They are my least favorite part of the FAN Cinematic Universe Experince (again, other than Mothman.) /rant I think the threads can help people accept this is the best AEW is going to do. Myself included I think there is a notion they will eventually step into some amazing surge. If they can't people to care with the incredible roster they have now, they never will and neither could any other company. I thought you were leaving the forums.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 9, 2024 22:39:05 GMT -5
But is it possible, perhaps, that what worked on television literally 25 years ago, is not a reflection of modern taste? Because what worked in the Attitude Era is not what worked during Rock and Wrestling, in turn. There may not in fact be an audience who wants to watch a wrestling show that doesn't have a lot of wrestling and has characters and has heretofore been repelled by too much wrestling and too many wrestles good men. Wrestling had its moment in the spotlight and then people moved on, and the people who are left are the actual, substantial volume of people who want to watch wrestling. That wrestling has to settle for "only" being a top cable ratings earner on multiple nights of the week, without an untapped market of people waiting in the wings for it to adapt to the tastes of a quarter century ago. There is no proof this group existsWhy does The Rock, “Mr Self-Indulgent Wrestlemania wrecker” still outpop everyone by a large margin? Dude spoke for 45 minutes and the show drew around 2.5 million viewers. You don’t have to be defensive of a style that nobody is attacking The Rock is one of the biggest names in Hollywood. Outright one of the most known people in the World. WWE are honestly lucky he still gives them the time of day.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 9, 2024 22:53:26 GMT -5
I’m not anti ratings threads at all, but I do have to say that I find it pretty amusing that literally about 12 people with Nielsen boxes who watching Dynamite this week choosing not to watch Dynamite this week has led to 7+ pages of discourse.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Mar 9, 2024 23:00:50 GMT -5
Is it really “7+ pages of discourse” or just 5 or 6 of the usual suspects going around in the same circle they’ve been going in for years?
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 9, 2024 23:03:23 GMT -5
Is it really “7+ pages of discourse” or just 5 or 6 of the usual suspects going around in the same circle they’ve been going in for years? Well, mostly that, but usually these ratings threads get like 2 pages max when the rating is 800k instead of 775k and we don’t have to wax poetic about the mythical “casual fans” because 10 Nielsen households decided to watch basketball instead of wrestling, or something.
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deezy
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Post by deezy on Mar 10, 2024 1:31:42 GMT -5
I call dibs on FTR! Who wants to nab UK? You can’t have Eddie Kingston or Yuta, they’re *my* punching bags. Damn, That's the 2 I want as my own punching bags but you called dibs first. I just gotta be quicker next time. 😂
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