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Post by polarbearpete on Mar 11, 2024 9:05:40 GMT -5
Couple of factors, but a main one would likely be what viewing habits they've developed; to a lot of people, Monday is simply "wrestling night" at this point, so some will be inclined to follow WWE since they're already committed to 3 hours of Raw. Meanwhile, two of AEW's three shows are in time slots or nights where fewer people tend to be around watching live TV (Smackdown's obviously doing just fine on Fridays, but prime time network TV is a different beast, especially compared with a 10pm show). Plus, there's also the point that both companies are distinct from one another in terms of storytelling style, in-ring product, and overall presentation; while AEW being different from WWE has made it the "alternative" brand, you don't get that label unless there's an established brand out there that many consider the "norm". As such, the "alternative" is most likely to draw people in during times when the established company is in a downswing or in the midst of making poor business/creative/product decisions, but when that "norm" company rights the ship to some degree many will go back to it because, well, again...it's the norm. WWE's hit on some strong characters in the last year-plus, and I don't doubt that it's drawn some people back to watching it with regularity; some of the people who gravitated back were, I'm guessing, people who might have been giving AEW a try during the doldrums at the end of the Vince years, but who ultimately prefer WWE's overall presentation and would watch it as long as the product's hotter. People talk about generalising 'casual fans' as a hivemind (which I agree with is a mistake) but surely it's the same thing to generalise people who watch WWE as predominantly doing so purely out of habit. The idea you're suggesting there - that people are conditioned to watch wrestling on a Monday and so watch Raw for three hours (regardless of quality) and then follow WWE from there - what's any of that based on? I think you have to afford people a certain amount of credit for liking what they like because they like it. I know I certainly wouldn't watch anything for six hours a week (and buy tickets, merch etc.) for something I'm only watching out of habit or because I liked it 20 years ago. So why would I assume anyone else would? It's getting away from AEW, but I think any realistic appraisal of where the wrestling market is and has been, has to at least be open to the idea that WWE has the fans it does because people like it. And they've by and large done a decent job of satisfying what they want out of wrestling. Not habit or luck or simple having existed for 50 years. Considering Dynamite was edging extremely close to Raw in the demo when AEW was at its hottest and WWE was cold kind of kills that narrative anyway. The viewership swung up for Raw and down for Dynamite because WWE started getting good again and people were choosing to watch that over Dynamite.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 11, 2024 10:34:56 GMT -5
I think the "advantage" that WWE has over AEW has less to do with the respective ages of the companies, in a vacuum, and more to do with the fact that there are basically 2-3 generations of people who have strong childhood nostalgia for WWE and that doesn't exist (yet) for AEW. Nostalgia is a powerful thing and, right now, is arguably the driving force of entertainment. A 30-year-old who feels nostalgic for pro wrestling probably isn't going to turn on AEW, by default.
There's also the whole notion that, by virtue of having been around so much longer, WWE is viewed by the average person as the "big leagues," even if the talent level is roughly the same. Fair or unfair, to a lot of people who enjoy wrestling but aren't massive wrestling fans, watching AEW is akin to, like, watching a G-League game. "Casual" basketball fans may tune into Warriors/Celtics on TNT, but they probably aren't ever going to seek out, like, a Sioux Falls Skyforce/Rip City Remix game. It's an uphill battle for AEW to shake that perception, and not one that they should reasonably have been expected to shake in less than 5 years of existence.
In many ways, AEW was so successful and grew so quickly that the expectations became a tad unrealistic with a lot of people. You see so many posts other places on the internet about AEW being a "sinking ship" when, in reality, it's a ship that is comfortably treading water on a long journey that started fast.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 11, 2024 11:15:09 GMT -5
Couple of factors, but a main one would likely be what viewing habits they've developed; to a lot of people, Monday is simply "wrestling night" at this point, so some will be inclined to follow WWE since they're already committed to 3 hours of Raw. Meanwhile, two of AEW's three shows are in time slots or nights where fewer people tend to be around watching live TV (Smackdown's obviously doing just fine on Fridays, but prime time network TV is a different beast, especially compared with a 10pm show). Plus, there's also the point that both companies are distinct from one another in terms of storytelling style, in-ring product, and overall presentation; while AEW being different from WWE has made it the "alternative" brand, you don't get that label unless there's an established brand out there that many consider the "norm". As such, the "alternative" is most likely to draw people in during times when the established company is in a downswing or in the midst of making poor business/creative/product decisions, but when that "norm" company rights the ship to some degree many will go back to it because, well, again...it's the norm. WWE's hit on some strong characters in the last year-plus, and I don't doubt that it's drawn some people back to watching it with regularity; some of the people who gravitated back were, I'm guessing, people who might have been giving AEW a try during the doldrums at the end of the Vince years, but who ultimately prefer WWE's overall presentation and would watch it as long as the product's hotter. People talk about generalising 'casual fans' as a hivemind (which I agree with is a mistake) but surely it's the same thing to generalise people who watch WWE as predominantly doing so purely out of habit. The idea you're suggesting there - that people are conditioned to watch wrestling on a Monday and so watch Raw for three hours (regardless of quality) and then follow WWE from there - what's any of that based on? I think you have to afford people a certain amount of credit for liking what they like because they like it. I know I certainly wouldn't watch anything for six hours a week (and buy tickets, merch etc.) for something I'm only watching out of habit or because I liked it 20 years ago. So why would I assume anyone else would? It's getting away from AEW, but I think any realistic appraisal of where the wrestling market is and has been, has to at least be open to the idea that WWE has the fans it does because people like it. And they've by and large done a decent job of satisfying what they want out of wrestling. Not habit or luck or simple having existed for 50 years. Who's generalizing? It's a portion of the audience, not necessarily a majority, but "Monday is wrestling night" is pretty ingrained at this point and no doubt contributes to WWE's position as industry leader.
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Post by eJm on Mar 11, 2024 12:45:57 GMT -5
Who's generalizing? It's a portion of the audience, not necessarily a majority, but "Monday is wrestling night" is pretty ingrained at this point and no doubt contributes to WWE's position as industry leader. Heck, USA/NBC was adamant about that for years. Raw would be the reason USA would have high placements on a Monday across all cable in the demos (along with each hour being its own block for their own purposes). It was why I was so surprised they’re picking Smackdown on Fridays over it until you remember the NBA rights are up for grabs at the end of April since WBD seem to be kicking that can repeatedly. EDIT: Heck, Eric Bischoff took on WWE twice with two different companies off the idea of Monday being wrestling night.
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Post by asuka007 on Mar 11, 2024 14:33:36 GMT -5
I think at this particular point in time, the debate is not just about ratings. It’d also that a lot of AEW’s TV shows have had lackluster ticket sales as well.
And rightly or wrongly, that is feeding into this conversation.
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Post by daaave on Mar 11, 2024 14:49:18 GMT -5
I might be wrong and it's purely observational but I feel like attendances have kinda increased slightly in recent weeks. I know last week wasn't best number but put that down to double taping. Just kind feels they gone from high 2 thousands into mid/high 3 thousands. The ppvs and Big Business done well.
I feel like they bottomed out earlier this year/late last year and gradually increasing very slowly.
But again I'm just basing that on gut feeling. I feel like each recent week I'm more 'that's not too bad' compared to recent past where I was more often going 'yikes, that's bad'
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Post by stoptheclocks on Mar 11, 2024 14:52:00 GMT -5
People talk about generalising 'casual fans' as a hivemind (which I agree with is a mistake) but surely it's the same thing to generalise people who watch WWE as predominantly doing so purely out of habit. The idea you're suggesting there - that people are conditioned to watch wrestling on a Monday and so watch Raw for three hours (regardless of quality) and then follow WWE from there - what's any of that based on? I think you have to afford people a certain amount of credit for liking what they like because they like it. I know I certainly wouldn't watch anything for six hours a week (and buy tickets, merch etc.) for something I'm only watching out of habit or because I liked it 20 years ago. So why would I assume anyone else would? It's getting away from AEW, but I think any realistic appraisal of where the wrestling market is and has been, has to at least be open to the idea that WWE has the fans it does because people like it. And they've by and large done a decent job of satisfying what they want out of wrestling. Not habit or luck or simple having existed for 50 years. Who's generalizing? It's a portion of the audience, not necessarily a majority, but "Monday is wrestling night" is pretty ingrained at this point and no doubt contributes to WWE's position as industry leader. Correct me if I've missed something. You said an issue for AEW was that people only have so much time to watch wrestling. And a (presumably significant) number of the wrestling audience watch Monday Night Raw purely because it's on a Monday, and then feel 'well I might as well stick with WWE for the rest of the week'. How big a portion of the audience do you think that is, and what is that based on? How are you separating people watching Monday Night Raw out of habit from those watching because... they enjoy it? If Raw and Dynamite swapped nights, I don't see any reason people who've been watching Raw for 10-20 years would suddenly watch Dynamite instead. Because it's wrestling broadcast on a Monday. If anything I think Raw's ratings would improve over a year from not going up against the NFL.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 11, 2024 15:06:27 GMT -5
I might be wrong and it's purely observational but I feel like attendances have kinda increased slightly in recent weeks. I know last week wasn't best number but put that down to double taping. Just kind feels they gone from high 2 thousands into mid/high 3 thousands. The ppvs and Big Business done well. I feel like they bottomed out earlier this year/late last year and gradually increasing very slowly. But again I'm just basing that on gut feeling. I feel like each recent week I'm more 'that's not too bad' compared to recent past where I was more often going 'yikes, that's bad' It's so hard to quantify, because the actual effect of a run of good programming tends to lag behind by a few weeks, but it definitely does feel like AEW's content has turned a corner a bit the last few weeks. The company has addressed most of the criticism that it was getting in that down period at the tail end of CM Punk's run with the company. More people are in storylines, the storylines are more varied, there's been a noticeable increased focus on the women's division, stale characters have changed gimmicks, etc... I've noticed that the only people you still see riffing on AEW's actual content recently are the Cornette diehards. Most everyone else seems to be acknowledging that the product has improved a lot. I hope that ultimately leads to better attendance and TV ratings. All AEW can really do right now is stay the course.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 11, 2024 15:21:23 GMT -5
Who's generalizing? It's a portion of the audience, not necessarily a majority, but "Monday is wrestling night" is pretty ingrained at this point and no doubt contributes to WWE's position as industry leader. Correct me if I've missed something. You said an issue for AEW was that people only have so much time to watch wrestling. And a (presumably significant) number of the wrestling audience watch Monday Night Raw purely because it's on a Monday, and then feel 'well I might as well stick with WWE for the rest of the week'. How big a portion of the audience do you think that is, and what is that based on? How are you separating people watching Monday Night Raw out of habit from those watching because... they enjoy it? If Raw and Dynamite swapped nights, I don't see any reason people who've been watching Raw for 10-20 years would suddenly watch Dynamite instead. Because it's wrestling broadcast on a Monday. If anything I think Raw's ratings would improve over a year from not going up against the NFL. There are plenty of people who watch things out of habit, for just about any form of entertainment, and a show with 30+ years history like Raw absolutely gets a portion of its audience that way. This isn't exactly a hot take, it's been pretty well established by most industry observers and reporters over the years. That doesn't mean most of those people are only watching due to habit, but it's a factor that will play into a person's decision about what promotion to dedicate most of their time to; as I said before, WWE is "the norm" for many people, so when WWE is in an upswing period there's a portion of the audience that will likely gravitate back toward it in part due to the comfort and familiarity with the scheduling. When AEW was in its first couple of years it benefitted greatly from WWE decidedly not being in an upswing in the eyes of many fans, but now that WWE's content has improved (I'm not a fan of it, personally, but even to non-fans like me the improvements over Vince's worst booking insanity has been pretty clear) it wouldn't shock me at all if some fans decided to switch back to dedicating more of their time to it over AEW in part due to, again, that familiarity, routine, and/or nostalgia.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Mar 11, 2024 15:28:33 GMT -5
Who's generalizing? It's a portion of the audience, not necessarily a majority, but "Monday is wrestling night" is pretty ingrained at this point and no doubt contributes to WWE's position as industry leader. Heck, USA/NBC was adamant about that for years. Raw would be the reason USA would have high placements on a Monday across all cable in the demos (along with each hour being its own block for their own purposes). It was why I was so surprised they’re picking Smackdown on Fridays over it until you remember the NBA rights are up for grabs at the end of April since WBD seem to be kicking that can repeatedly. EDIT: Heck, Eric Bischoff took on WWE twice with two different companies off the idea of Monday being wrestling night. There's a difference between Monday being an established night for wrestling with a desirable record of success, and it having it's own innate drawing power and being a key reason why people follow one wrestling promotion over another. When USA (and now Netflix) are paying billions for wrestling content, they're paying for WWE. They're not paying for the rights to show wrestling on a Monday. If they should just stick NWA in that slot and save a fortune.
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Mar 11, 2024 16:11:31 GMT -5
I don't even think it's really a "everyone went back to WWE cause they're WWE" thing. AEW's shows have been a great time for me but even I can acknowledge they've lacked great overarching stories for well over a year now. Maybe close to 2. The in-ring stuff is riveting and the smaller stories tickle my fancy but that's not what is going to get people to watch every single week. AEW doesn't need to do stuff to appeal to a casual audience but what they do need to do will appeal to the casuals and diehards alike. That could have been the devil angle but it just wasn't, it was a bust as it happened.
It could've been Punk/Elite but Punk was Punk and you can't blame the Elite at all for saying "f*** this guy in particular". They still made the right move for themselves but AEW has not had the booking that is conductive to huge angles attracting attention besides Sting's last match. I'm not saying they need to go all attitude era with it and have Wardlow drive down in a Woo Energy truck and spray Flair down with his own energy drink in the ring never to be seen again but... Actually you know what.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Mar 11, 2024 16:23:06 GMT -5
Well Rampage did its best 18-49 rating in a month. So take that narrative. Rammers are here to save this damn company.
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 11, 2024 16:28:06 GMT -5
Well Rampage did its best 18-49 rating in a month. So take that narrative. Rammers are here to save this damn company. Does it still have the same awful theme song though? Seriously, I was to make a list of bad wrestling show theme songs, "This is Rampage" is in the top 3.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 11, 2024 16:39:52 GMT -5
Well Rampage did its best 18-49 rating in a month. So take that narrative. Rammers are here to save this damn company. Does it still have the same awful theme song though? Seriously, I was to make a list of bad wrestling show theme songs, "This is Rampage" is in the top 3. Don't disrespect the show we've all been waitin' on!!
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Post by khali on Mar 11, 2024 16:54:55 GMT -5
Well Rampage did its best 18-49 rating in a month. So take that narrative. Rammers are here to save this damn company. I’ve determined that this means the casual fan specifically likes Rampage only. The format should be copied by all other shows.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 11, 2024 16:57:39 GMT -5
Zak Knight screaming incoherently = Ratings.
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Post by 06vwgti on Mar 11, 2024 17:00:08 GMT -5
Well Rampage did its best 18-49 rating in a month. So take that narrative. Rammers are here to save this damn company. I’ve determined that this means the casual fan specifically likes Rampage only. The format should be copied by all other shows. Look at all the rammers who love the Saraya/Ruby Storyline and the one started on Rampage, Stokely/Statlander/Willow
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Post by Doo Doo Dickhead on Mar 11, 2024 17:01:48 GMT -5
Well Rampage did its best 18-49 rating in a month. So take that narrative. Rammers are here to save this damn company. Does it still have the same awful theme song though? Seriously, I was to make a list of bad wrestling show theme songs, "This is Rampage" is in the top 3. It makes up for it by having the best angle in wrestling, Ruby/Saraya.
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Post by Dub H on Mar 11, 2024 17:27:42 GMT -5
I don't even think it's really a "everyone went back to WWE cause they're WWE" thing. AEW's shows have been a great time for me but even I can acknowledge they've lacked great overarching stories for well over a year now. Maybe close to 2. The in-ring stuff is riveting and the smaller stories tickle my fancy but that's not what is going to get people to watch every single week. AEW doesn't need to do stuff to appeal to a casual audience but what they do need to do will appeal to the casuals and diehards alike. That could have been the devil angle but it just wasn't, it was a bust as it happened. It could've been Punk/Elite but Punk was Punk and you can't blame the Elite at all for saying "f*** this guy in particular". They still made the right move for themselves but AEW has not had the booking that is conductive to huge angles attracting attention besides Sting's last match. I'm not saying they need to go all attitude era with it and have Wardlow drive down in a Woo Energy truck and spray Flair down with his own energy drink in the ring never to be seen again but... Actually you know what. Its partly true, its the nature of the beast and the business that WWE just needs to be okay to do great busines while if AEW wants to grow it needs to be amazing constantly and have no big hiccups.AEW needs to have great storylines constantly to be able to grow And just look at the massive damage CM Punk caused to the brand, it wouldnt affect someone massive as WWE
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 11, 2024 17:52:09 GMT -5
Well Rampage did its best 18-49 rating in a month. So take that narrative. Rammers are here to save this damn company. The Rammers have a working relationship with the NXTeers, that’s why.
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