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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Mar 21, 2024 22:51:57 GMT -5
Let me just look at this picture here... Wait... What the... ... the hell?
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Post by CeilingFan on Mar 21, 2024 22:55:05 GMT -5
Frankly, I have criticized TK a lot when it comes to booking recently. But there really wasn’t much more that he could have done here. He booked a really good 3 hour show essentially. And it was a smorgasbords or everything you could want on a wrestling show. And it was promoted well and they almost sell out the venue. So they did right here. But even if AEW is turning things around, it will take a bit of time for that to pay off hopefully. AND, WWE being on a hot streak and heading into WrestleMania is also not helping AEW either. I think it will be more telling seeing how things are say two months from now? WWE will fizzle out after WM40. That's when AEW needs to go at warp 10 speed!
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Post by IgnahtaSempria on Mar 21, 2024 22:56:59 GMT -5
My problem with the "casual fan" argument on the board is that, 9 times out of 10, the thing that's allegedly chasing off the casuals just so happens to be the same thing that poster doesn't like. There's rarely any concrete proof that [Insert Wrestler/Angle/Booking Choice Here] has any drastic effect on the ratings or ticket sales, but that poster doesn't like it, so they claim that "the casual fans" don't like it to give their opinion more weight.
For example, back during the company's first two years, there were people who would semi-regularly say that "silly" gimmicks like Orange Cassidy and The Jurassic Express were driving off fans, despite the fact that they were two of the top merch sellers at the time and there's almost always at least one kid in the front rows dressed as OC. It was basically just "I don't like it, therefore the casual fans don't like it, because my opinion is the correct opinion, so the casual fans must share my opinion".
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Mar 21, 2024 23:05:16 GMT -5
The casual plan conversation is so played out. When are we going to move on to the oscillating fan discussion? Like, how many AEW fans who watch Dynamite don't care about Rampage?
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 22, 2024 0:59:39 GMT -5
My problem with the "casual fan" argument on the board is that, 9 times out of 10, the thing that's allegedly chasing off the casuals just so happens to be the same thing that poster doesn't like. There's rarely any concrete proof that [Insert Wrestler/Angle/Booking Choice Here] has any drastic effect on the ratings or ticket sales, but that poster doesn't like it, so they claim that "the casual fans" don't like it to give their opinion more weight. For example, back during the company's first two years, there were people who would semi-regularly say that "silly" gimmicks like Orange Cassidy and The Jurassic Express were driving off fans, despite the fact that they were two of the top merch sellers at the time and there's almost always at least one kid in the front rows dressed as OC. It was basically just "I don't like it, therefore the casual fans don't like it, because my opinion is the correct opinion, so the casual fans must share my opinion". Wish I could like this more than once to really emphasize how true it is and how disingenuous the argument comes off. Just say you don't like what's happening, stop making up quite literally imaginary people to back up your opinion... just HAVE the opinion and the speculation of what might or might not work, because "the casual fan" probably feels insulted you're lumping them into your nonsense and telling everyone what you FOR SURE know they like or don't. Because, realistically? Especially if they're casual viewers, they don't give a shit.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Mar 22, 2024 1:04:31 GMT -5
'CA-SU-AL! CA-SU-AL! CA-SU-AL!"
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Mar 22, 2024 4:53:29 GMT -5
Respectfully, I don't think any of us mean anything different between singular and plural. No, you and I are definitely talking about different types of guy I don’t think so. I just think you generally don’t like what I have to say and that’s okay. But what I mean is the the type of fan that will stay tuned when they like something but isn’t appointment viewing
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Post by Doo Doo Dickhead on Mar 22, 2024 5:41:47 GMT -5
I hope this means more Butcher!
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Moppy
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Post by Moppy on Mar 22, 2024 5:43:11 GMT -5
No, you and I are definitely talking about different types of guy I don’t think so. I just think you generally don’t like what I have to say and that’s okay. But what I mean is the the type of fan that will stay tuned when they like something but isn’t appointment viewing I don't think anyone disputes the existence of casual fans who might be better described as 'fairweather fans'? They tune in when they see something they like, they split when they get bored, they're not as invested. Tale as old as time. It's expected. What posters are taking issue with is posts rooted in 'AEW needs to appeal to The Casual Fan, a construct who likes what I like and dislikes what I dislike' with threadbare evidence.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Mar 22, 2024 5:59:18 GMT -5
Tony Khan has spent 20 million per year on these 4 talents (Sasha,Osprey,Edge,Okada) and they haven't made any difference in the ratings. Cable ratings aren't the only measure of success for a wrestling company. Their weekly shows have had better crowds lately. Their PPVs usually do good numbers and they keep doing more shows per year overall.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Mar 22, 2024 6:08:34 GMT -5
I hope this means more Butcher! I actually DO wish Butcher (and Blade) had gotten at least somewhat of a push. Dude has a cool look, but I don't think I've ever seen him actually win a match on TV
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Mar 22, 2024 6:24:35 GMT -5
I don’t think so. I just think you generally don’t like what I have to say and that’s okay. But what I mean is the the type of fan that will stay tuned when they like something but isn’t appointment viewing I don't think anyone disputes the existence of casual fans who might be better described as 'fairweather fans'? They tune in when they see something they like, they split when they get bored, they're not as invested. Tale as old as time. It's expected. What posters are taking issue with is posts rooted in 'AEW needs to appeal to The Casual Fan, a construct who likes what I like and dislikes what I dislike' with threadbare evidence. But why get so bent over it? WWE has the same problem when they are slumping. It’s not about tribal constructs, it’s noticing a viewership pattern that doesn’t match online consensus opinions.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Mar 22, 2024 6:27:36 GMT -5
Again, just to prove that my casual fan argument isn’t a tribal one. Outside the main event, I personally believe this road to Wrestlemania for WWE is rather boring and lackluster. Not a lot of oomph imo. But the casual fan sees Rock and Roman together, a long with Cody and his story building momentum and reaching its crescendo and that’s enough for them to tune in again.
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Moppy
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Post by Moppy on Mar 22, 2024 6:47:15 GMT -5
I don't think anyone disputes the existence of casual fans who might be better described as 'fairweather fans'? They tune in when they see something they like, they split when they get bored, they're not as invested. Tale as old as time. It's expected. What posters are taking issue with is posts rooted in 'AEW needs to appeal to The Casual Fan, a construct who likes what I like and dislikes what I dislike' with threadbare evidence. But why get so bent over it? WWE has the same problem when they are slumping. It’s not about tribal constructs, it’s noticing a viewership pattern that doesn’t match online consensus opinions. I can't speak for others but it doesn't strike me that many are really bent outta shape about this. As I say, it's just a minority seeing AEW ratings and concluding 'well you see they're not doing the things I like, that's why'. Fully accept that viewership won't always tally with online commentary consensus for a variety of reasons, that's fine. I don't really think it's a tribal thing either. We had infamous posters on here postulating for years that the reason WWE was struggling was because they weren't using big roidy guys anymore.
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Post by eJm on Mar 22, 2024 7:07:57 GMT -5
Tony Khan has spent 20 million per year on these 4 talents (Sasha,Osprey,Edge,Okada) and they haven't made any difference in the ratings. Cable ratings aren't the only measure of success for a wrestling company. Their weekly shows have had better crowds lately. Their PPVs usually do good numbers and they keep doing more shows per year overall. To add to this, one of the many, many issues with judging things from a US glance is it doesn’t take in viewership globally or stuff like TrillerTV’s AEW Plus service or anything else. Heck, WBD have said themselves that they don’t judge AEW’s overall success as a TV show by just viewership. They said as much when Collision was launched and to Sean Ross Sapp when he asked which tells me they have stuff we, the public, aren’t privy to. And again, if they’re fine with how things are, the discussion between us is just “This thing I don’t like did well and this thing I did like didn’t” or whatever the talking point is this week. If WBD wasn’t happy with things, they’d been given the axe by now like with what Fox did to Smackdown.
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Mar 22, 2024 7:39:51 GMT -5
You know, I'd just written a great post about casual fans, how they're more complex that just being a monolith of thought, and why AEW shouldn't change its philosophy to chase them but I've deleted it. I really can't be bothered with these same arguments every single week.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 22, 2024 7:58:48 GMT -5
I think at this point, the only thing that really needs to be said is that I am almost positive that everyone on this forum recognizes that wrestling fans who don't consider wrestling their #1 hobby exist, and that it's obviously a positive for a wrestling company to appeal (but not cater) to those people.
The pushback against "the casual fan" narrative is because so many people use it as an expy for themselves with the argument more or less being "if [insert company] simply catered to exactly what I like in wrestling, then it would become mainstream again and people who otherwise would have no interest in pro wrestling would be left with no choice but to watch because I am way less dorky than all of the other wrestling fans, and what I enjoy is actually cool!"
Nothing's impossible and never say never, but the odds of something as inherently campy and niche as professional wrestling becoming "mainstream" again in the same way that it was in the late 90s in this day and age of cord-cutting, streaming, and on-demand entertainment are minuscule.
People see an 800k United States Nielsen TV rating and are like "that's it, pack it in, AEW is dead," when in reality consistently drawing upwards of a million viewers worldwide each week and consistently getting upwards of 100k quarterly PPV buys is a sign of resounding success for a pro wrestling company. If the measure of success for AEW to you is "convincing non-wrestling fans (or even people who haven't watched wrestling since 1999) to watch," then of course the only thing AEW can do is fail, because that's basically an impossible task.
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Post by eJm on Mar 22, 2024 7:59:18 GMT -5
To go in a different direction. Good lord at that ratings drop for Jericho/Hook. There is something up when it comes to Jericho. Fozzy might need to go on tour for a while. Honestly, this is the discussion we really should be having. Jericho, especially during the Full Sale year, used to be the go to for getting strong ratings and demos so much so it became a bit on the shows. Now he’s actually turning people away and making them come back after he’s gone. We can debate until we’re blue in the face about the Hausman effect or if it’s something more substantial but the fact is; dude needs to leave and get a refresh and it’s weird that he’d be the last person to realize that considering one of the reasons he’s still on national TV is because of that reason.
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Post by Denny Zen is Cooking™ on Mar 22, 2024 8:02:27 GMT -5
To go in a different direction. Good lord at that ratings drop for Jericho/Hook. There is something up when it comes to Jericho. Fozzy might need to go on tour for a while. Honestly, this is the discussion we really should be having. Jericho, especially during the Full Sale year, used to be the go to for getting strong ratings and demos so much so it became a bit on the shows. Now he’s actually turning people away and making them come back after he’s gone. We can debate until we’re blue in the face about the Hausman effect or if it’s something more substantial but the fact is; dude needs to leave and get a refresh and it’s weird that he’d be the last person to realize that considering one of the reasons he’s still on national TV is because of that reason. What's weird is that I think Jericho is actually going for the refresh by bringing out the Lionheart gimmick full-time and focusing entirely on having competitive matches with luchadors and, now, HOOK. It's just not hitting in the same way that Jericho's reinventions usually do. I still enjoy the guy a lot, and would easily place him in my Top 5 favorite wrestlers even today, but I do think he's due to take 6 months or so off to allow the fans to start to miss him again.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Mar 22, 2024 8:29:22 GMT -5
But why get so bent over it? WWE has the same problem when they are slumping. It’s not about tribal constructs, it’s noticing a viewership pattern that doesn’t match online consensus opinions. I can't speak for others but it doesn't strike me that many are really bent outta shape about this. As I say, it's just a minority seeing AEW ratings and concluding 'well you see they're not doing the things I like, that's why'. Fully accept that viewership won't always tally with online commentary consensus for a variety of reasons, that's fine. I don't really think it's a tribal thing either. We had infamous posters on here postulating for years that the reason WWE was struggling was because they weren't using big roidy guys anymore. And respectfully, I don’t think, “they aren’t doing the same things I like, that’s why” is something that’s very prevalent as some are implying. To me the casual fan is a generic term for the people who tune in for the John Cena’s if you will and ensure that “type” of performer is the main event player so to speak. To me the industry is more populated with “very good pro wrestlers” and that’s not perceived as cool. Again, WWE has that same problem. Besides cable viewership, wrestling isn’t cool anymore and I think it’s because casual fans want more sports entertainment esque characters and story. And let be clear, there’s nothing wrong with AEW being AEW. There’s a hardcore fanbase that loves it. I just think reaching and expecting internet consensus to mirror tv viewing and wondering why it doesn’t lies deeper than “tough competition on tv.”
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