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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 6, 2024 7:44:57 GMT -5
When he was kicked off the board the first time! >_> <_<
When he stopped listening to people entirely is probably like 2015-2018
2014 there were signs of it but he still ultimately did the right thing even if he had to be dragged to it kicking and screaming... with Mania 30.
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msc
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Post by msc on Apr 6, 2024 7:49:39 GMT -5
What ability? Most of the boom periods had other acclaimed bookers (Pat Patterson and George Scott to name two) and since the millennium the stronger periods of TV have had other names writing them such as Heyman, Chris Kreski and even Stephanie herself. Vince could come up with ideas or filter others but his hands on day to day stuff tended to go down like a lead balloon.
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Post by eJm on Apr 6, 2024 7:50:24 GMT -5
When he was kicked off the board the first time! >_> <_< When he stopped listening to people entirely is probably like 2015-2018 2014 there were signs of it but he still ultimately did the right thing even if he had to be dragged to it kicking and screaming... with Mania 30. You can make a really strong case for 2015. That Royal Rumble was booked by a guy tired of fans disagreeing with his decisions and basically sent a 60+ minute middle finger to all of them.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Apr 6, 2024 7:57:17 GMT -5
I think signs of it started around 2015. There was some bad before it, but that is when Vince seemed to really get the most stubborn. I'd say things finally really went off the rails in 2018
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Apr 6, 2024 9:36:20 GMT -5
I would NOT say it's as popular as it's ever been. It's potentially getting there, but rewatching a lot of non-WWE owned 1985 footage from local news coverage of the events leading up to Wrestlemania, it's not there. Hogan/T vs Piper/Orndorff has public comments from Tina Turner, the vice presidential candidate Geraldine Ferraro, National Organization for Women head Gloria Steinem and Little Richard. Additionally, you had the direct involvement from the biggest starts in television, music and the art world involved. Media has changed a lot in the last 40 years. Some would say nothing can capture that much of a zeitgeist again, but last year we had Taylor Swift and we had Barbenheimer. Until wrestling reaches that kind of not just popularity, but ubiquity, it's not "as popular as its ever been." We're near Attitude Era level heating up, but lets keep expectations and reality in check. I was just having this conversation. Agreed that it’s hard to judge popularity in this fragmented, endless, media landscape, but WWE’s popularity is strange right now. They’re selling out shows at a rate as good as they ever have. Nearly everyone on the roster is over in the way they want them to be. Shows are good. Crowds are hot. Yet I don’t know a single person in real life who is watching wrestling outside of the same people who would have come to my house to watch Wrestlemania 25. I never see WWE shirts in the wild. Back in the 90s, Walmart had a whole aisle of wrestling toys. It’s nowhere near that level now. Looking at the hard cam last night, it was 90% dudes over 30. This boom seems to be primarily fueled by getting nearly everyone who’s been interested in wrestling at any point in the last 20 years to watch. Which is not nothing, but it sure isnt the inescapable phenomenon it was in the late 90s and in the Hogan Era. But it might be the upper ceiling in this modern media environment. I’m not underselling what they’ve done, but it doesn’t feel the same as the Attitude Era
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Post by James Fabiano on Apr 6, 2024 9:49:48 GMT -5
That and when "the brand is the star" started.
I think Cena and Rock leaving and becoming bigger than just WWE superstars stopped him from having confidence in giving someone who deserved it the ball. To a degree, (redacted) leaving after Mania 20 and joining UFC, though I think he wanted to go to the NFL actually??
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Post by SkullTrauma on Apr 6, 2024 10:04:55 GMT -5
The WWE now is as popular as its ever been, the storytelling is as good as it's ever been LOL
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Apr 6, 2024 10:12:48 GMT -5
Vince seemed to stop knowing what he was doing by 2009.
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Post by eJm on Apr 6, 2024 11:09:16 GMT -5
I would NOT say it's as popular as it's ever been. It's potentially getting there, but rewatching a lot of non-WWE owned 1985 footage from local news coverage of the events leading up to Wrestlemania, it's not there. Hogan/T vs Piper/Orndorff has public comments from Tina Turner, the vice presidential candidate Geraldine Ferraro, National Organization for Women head Gloria Steinem and Little Richard. Additionally, you had the direct involvement from the biggest starts in television, music and the art world involved. Media has changed a lot in the last 40 years. Some would say nothing can capture that much of a zeitgeist again, but last year we had Taylor Swift and we had Barbenheimer. Until wrestling reaches that kind of not just popularity, but ubiquity, it's not "as popular as its ever been." We're near Attitude Era level heating up, but lets keep expectations and reality in check. I was just having this conversation. Agreed that it’s hard to judge popularity in this fragmented, endless, media landscape, but WWE’s popularity is strange right now. They’re selling out shows at a rate as good as they ever have. Nearly everyone on the roster is over in the way they want them to be. Shows are good. Crowds are hot. Yet I don’t know a single person in real life who is watching wrestling outside of the same people who would have come to my house to watch Wrestlemania 25. I never see WWE shirts in the wild. Back in the 90s, Walmart had a whole aisle of wrestling toys. It’s nowhere near that level now. Looking at the hard cam last night, it was 90% dudes over 30. This boom seems to be primarily fueled by getting nearly everyone who’s been interested in wrestling at any point in the last 20 years to watch. Which is not nothing, but it sure isnt the inescapable phenomenon it was in the late 90s and in the Hogan Era. But it might be the upper ceiling in this modern media environment. I’m not underselling what they’ve done, but it doesn’t feel the same as the Attitude Era Yeah, it’s hard to judge when the media space is what it is but it’s one of those things where you can tell they’re making bundles and bundles but there isn’t a scenario where Cody and Roman is in a commercial for old technology like Hogan and Slaughter were for Radio Shack for example. And that’s not to say it isn’t popular or making money because it very much is but it’s sort of on the same level as big name YouTubers or streamers where you can never hear of it and then go “Oh, they have this many people watching?”. Like Austin Creed hosting a video game conference is the same sort of thing as Ninja or someone of his ilk doing it, they’re geek people (in the sense of being known by that type of person and not the “pencil necked” variety).
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ChitownKnight
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Post by ChitownKnight on Apr 6, 2024 13:39:15 GMT -5
When he was kicked off the board the first time! >_> <_< When he stopped listening to people entirely is probably like 2015-2018 2014 there were signs of it but he still ultimately did the right thing even if he had to be dragged to it kicking and screaming... with Mania 30. You can make a really strong case for 2015. That Royal Rumble was booked by a guy tired of fans disagreeing with his decisions and basically sent a 60+ minute middle finger to all of them. They still did the right thing at that years Mania and had Seth win the title. The next year’s mania though was a complete disaster, but it’s weird though since 2016 Smackdown was fire but Raw was a dud that year and 2017 on was complete doo doo
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Apr 6, 2024 14:04:14 GMT -5
I feel like outside the Hulk Hogan era, he himself wasn’t a good booker at all. And that was when he was younger, in the know, and had his finger on the pulse of pop culture cause he was still watching it. He was also businessman who took advantage of promoters and used his money to outlast their ass.
But you only have to look at post Hulkamania and the New Generation, dude didn’t have a clue about what people wanted anymore cause he had built this insular bubble with his success. The only reason the Attitude Era even happened was because he had guys like Patterson, JR, Cornette, Prichard, and yes even on a pole match bro himself giving him ideas and THAT was only a thing because his competition was kicking his ass.
And once that was over? He had gotten even more out of touch, more insular, got rid of his booking trust in favor of writers and yesmen, and he realized that his company was idiotproof to make money. So like, why book anything for anyone other than yourself?
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Post by Zombie Mod is not a ghoul. on Apr 6, 2024 14:08:29 GMT -5
the moment he realised he had no true competition and the company wouldn't instantly implode if he half arsed everything.
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Apr 6, 2024 14:40:46 GMT -5
Yeah, it’s hard to pinpoint exactly when. I just think about how, so often, it felt like he was overtly antagonistic to fans. It felt like the product was frustrating by design, entertaining by pure happenstance. And it just doesn’t have to be that way. More often than not, give the fans what they want. Not always, you do have to maintain a certain level of unpredictability. But strike that right balance and it’s magic. Vince had lost the plot, long ago.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 6, 2024 14:47:53 GMT -5
Yeah, it’s hard to pinpoint exactly when. I just think about how, so often, it felt like he was overtly antagonistic to fans. It felt like the product was frustrating by design, entertaining by pure happenstance. And it just doesn’t have to be that way. More often than not, give the fans what they want. Not always, you do have to maintain a certain level of unpredictability. But strike that right balance and it’s magic. Vince had lost the plot, long ago. Yeah there is nothing wrong with predictability in wrestling, honestly most big time matches should have an air of predictability to them... a story isn't necessarily bad because you know how it's going to end.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 6, 2024 14:58:27 GMT -5
2001 felt like the first real sign of it since the big, long-term angle (the Invasion) was just so dismal in a lot of ways. Granted, some of that was out of McMahon's control like the biggest WCW names being signed directly to Time Warner instead of WCW proper and Triple H's quad injury. But otherwise what could've been an incredible angle that created a lot of potential dream matches turned into yet more McMahon family drama and a Vince ego victory lap.
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Post by eJm on Apr 6, 2024 14:59:59 GMT -5
Yeah, it’s hard to pinpoint exactly when. I just think about how, so often, it felt like he was overtly antagonistic to fans. It felt like the product was frustrating by design, entertaining by pure happenstance. And it just doesn’t have to be that way. More often than not, give the fans what they want. Not always, you do have to maintain a certain level of unpredictability. But strike that right balance and it’s magic. Vince had lost the plot, long ago. Yeah there is nothing wrong with predictability in wrestling, honestly most big time matches should have an air of predictability to them... a story isn't necessarily bad because you know how it's going to end. Most popular culture has predictably embedded in them. Scooby and the gang would solve the mystery, Superman would beat the villain attacking Metropolis, the two people in love would get together after not being sure for so long etc etc. People like seeing how we start and how we get to that point and you can make that entertaining easily enough. It’s weirder coming from the guy who, despite all the edginess of the time, 95% of the time booked Austin/McMahon like they were episodes of Dick Dastardly and his Flying Machines.
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Post by crowley1986 on Apr 6, 2024 15:30:08 GMT -5
Cant remember who said it but Vince was seen as a good editor, marketing genius but the creative minds were patterson/bruce/russo for a point/Kreki/Gewurz/Stephanie even and now Hunter
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Magnus the Magnificent
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Apr 6, 2024 17:54:35 GMT -5
When Hulk left the first time.
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Post by thegame415 on Apr 6, 2024 18:26:45 GMT -5
Tough call. 2001 definitely sees a decrease in quality, but for me, it has to be 2009. RAW felt more like a variety show and there was never any consistency. Honestly, 2018/19-2022 might be the worst.
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Post by theironyuppie on Apr 7, 2024 3:27:23 GMT -5
Something else I’d add about his last few years is that his stubbornness was often combined with indecisiveness,, which lead to so much chopping and changing and outcomes that made nobody look good. The WM 34 main event is a good example, where fans were paranoid about a Roman ‘coronation’, but Vince didn’t follow through so we got Roman surviving five F5s but then getting pinned anyway.
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