froggyfrog
El Dandy
Scotty 2 Hotty đ
Posts: 7,758
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Post by froggyfrog on Apr 16, 2024 13:00:30 GMT -5
I love deathmatch stuff. Been attending CZW and/or GCW shows since I was a teenager. Just something about two dudes getting paid $25 each smashing eachother with light tubes and throwing eachother through glass just gets me going idk đ¤ˇââď¸
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Post by Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen on Apr 16, 2024 13:04:03 GMT -5
I love deathmatch stuff. Been attending CZW and/or GCW shows since I was a teenager. Just something about two dudes getting paid $25 each smashing eachother with light tubes and throwing eachother through glass just gets me going idk đ¤ˇââď¸ I definitely think thereâs a live show aspect to it. Iâm a huge fan of GCW, ICW NHB, H2O etc. but itâs a lot harder to get into the shows streaming them vs being there.
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Post by cassonova on Apr 16, 2024 14:27:29 GMT -5
I'm a fan, while I won't argue with the more inflammatory comments, as it's a matter of personal taste, I will note that for every Masha Slamovich or AKIRA there are twenty Low Life Louies bringing the game down.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 16, 2024 15:28:59 GMT -5
This is interesting, because, as I mentioned above, I absolutely do not find it easy to suspend my disbelief with this sort of match, because the real injuries and blood and pain inherently cause me to stop thinking about the show and start thinking about the actors. It's actually the same for chop battles, and the reason why I hate those. The entire point of them is "this really hurts, in real, not-fake-wrestling life. Look how tough we are actually feeling actual pain." It completely takes me out of it, because the entire, deliberate purpose is to remind me about the real people in the ring, not the wrestlers involved in the story. Sure, it can be done better or worse, and I'd even wager that there's certain characters and gimmicks I could admit it working for... if it's a great character moment, that can be transporting. But man is it an uphill climb, because the spot inherently gathers everyone around to whisper "Look, THIS is actually real, unlike the rest of that fake wrestling stuff!" At the same time, we've had actual deaths in the ring occur from dropkicks and back suplexes, and we don't stop thinking about the wrestling when they happen. And I don't think it was barbed wire that's caused all the problems to Mick Foley's long term health. If anything, stuff like barbed wire, blood, etc. is more a case of something that looks spectacular and makes the audience react without doing the really dangerous stuff like wild neck bumps (although obviously sometimes both happen, so maybe moot point). I'm... actually a little unsure how this is relevant to what I said. I mean, first of all, if someone botches a dropkick and a person clearly gets injured in the ring, I absolutely DO stop being transported into a match. And second, the point of using barbed wire is telling the audience "this is causing real pain and blood to the real person, right now; it's not fake pain just from selling." The point of using a german suplex isn't to, like, make everyone think about people who've been injured by that move for real. One thing I actually liked about this particular match, is the big spots did seem decently safe. That said, they also did unprotected head chairshots, and that can f*** right off. Because even if they're trick chairs and it was all safe (and I don't think they were), that feels like they're doing some kind of "We're not sanitized like the WWE, look at us endangering each other!"
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Post by THE FVNKER on Apr 16, 2024 15:32:29 GMT -5
The spectacle. The âcar crashâ nature of it. The novelty. By gah, they do it in wrestling promotions, in a wrestling ring, and use wrestling moves. I donât know what you think it is.. but just because you donât like it doesnât make it not wrestling. I understand how polarizing hardcore wrestling can be, and even more-so once you get to the deathmatch specific side of things as itâs pretty shocking stuff, and admittedly lacking in what a lot of people consider traditional wrestling qualities.. but at its very base, wrestling is performance art and extreme wrestling belongs all the same. The âitâs not wrestlingâ argument uses the same logical path as the âitâs just noise/I canât understand them because theyâre screamingâ argument when talking about heavy metal. It doesnât it make it not music because it isnât your idea of it. Wrestling is based on athletic skill and expertise, often taking years to attain, with compelling storylines and characters, not flaming tables, barbed wire and broken lightbulbs. To you đ¤ˇââď¸. Is a match between two rookies âwrestlingâ? Theyâre not always athletic or have any expertise. What about infrequent events like one usually sees in the indies, where there simply arenât storylines at all? I have no problem with anyoneâs certain tastes they have on things but when itâs backed but faulty logic it just strikes me as odd.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 16, 2024 15:36:20 GMT -5
Outside of really gross stuff like Abdullah the Butcher matches or backyard shindy-style matches, I enjoy hardcore matches. The best ones tend to have really good in-and-out-of-ring storytelling as opposed to gratuitous violence for the sake of it.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Apr 16, 2024 15:37:42 GMT -5
The spectacle. The âcar crashâ nature of it. The novelty. By gah, they do it in wrestling promotions, in a wrestling ring, and use wrestling moves. I donât know what you think it is.. but just because you donât like it doesnât make it not wrestling. I understand how polarizing hardcore wrestling can be, and even more-so once you get to the deathmatch specific side of things as itâs pretty shocking stuff, and admittedly lacking in what a lot of people consider traditional wrestling qualities.. but at its very base, wrestling is performance art and extreme wrestling belongs all the same. The âitâs not wrestlingâ argument uses the same logical path as the âitâs just noise/I canât understand them because theyâre screamingâ argument when talking about heavy metal. It doesnât it make it not music because it isnât your idea of it. Wrestling is based on athletic skill and expertise, often taking years to attain, with compelling storylines and characters, not flaming tables, barbed wire and broken lightbulbs. This is where I disagree with that statement. Pro wrestling is an art form and its done in many different ways. The good talent as mention above like Terry Funk, Foley, and ext. Who are all trained professionals who can work a normal match but, They all did this form of wrestling and a lot of the mid to late 98s was the most popular style of wrestling. The reason why was because they got big pay days to do so in Japan. The key is finding the ones like them who can work and do those things which several been name from the past and present in the thread. It may not be everyone favorite style but doesn't make "not" wrestling. Its a form of it as is any other style. You can hate it and that's fine but there is a reason why ECW was so popular and years after going out of business so many company made money from reunion shows and why WWE tried to bring it back. You don't hear that about other major companies like WCW and ext. They had the barbwire and flaming tables. May not in light tubes but the rest. But again the talent matters, there is a big different in talent who do it in GCW compared what you find in todays XPW.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,432
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 16, 2024 19:37:33 GMT -5
At the same time, we've had actual deaths in the ring occur from dropkicks and back suplexes, and we don't stop thinking about the wrestling when they happen. And I don't think it was barbed wire that's caused all the problems to Mick Foley's long term health. If anything, stuff like barbed wire, blood, etc. is more a case of something that looks spectacular and makes the audience react without doing the really dangerous stuff like wild neck bumps (although obviously sometimes both happen, so maybe moot point). I'm... actually a little unsure how this is relevant to what I said. I mean, first of all, if someone botches a dropkick and a person clearly gets injured in the ring, I absolutely DO stop being transported into a match. And second, the point of using barbed wire is telling the audience "this is causing real pain and blood to the real person, right now; it's not fake pain just from selling." The point of using a german suplex isn't to, like, make everyone think about people who've been injured by that move for real. One thing I actually liked about this particular match, is the big spots did seem decently safe. That said, they also did unprotected head chairshots, and that can f*** right off. Because even if they're trick chairs and it was all safe (and I don't think they were), that feels like they're doing some kind of "We're not sanitized like the WWE, look at us endangering each other!" I guess the central point is that wrestling (all of it) is dangerous and hurts, and hardcore wrestling when done right is often something that while the pain is obvious in the moment, won't do as long term damage as the stuff we really take for granted as part of the art form, so why shouldn't it be treated as spectacle in the same way as any other style?
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 16, 2024 21:38:09 GMT -5
I'm... actually a little unsure how this is relevant to what I said. I mean, first of all, if someone botches a dropkick and a person clearly gets injured in the ring, I absolutely DO stop being transported into a match. And second, the point of using barbed wire is telling the audience "this is causing real pain and blood to the real person, right now; it's not fake pain just from selling." The point of using a german suplex isn't to, like, make everyone think about people who've been injured by that move for real. One thing I actually liked about this particular match, is the big spots did seem decently safe. That said, they also did unprotected head chairshots, and that can f*** right off. Because even if they're trick chairs and it was all safe (and I don't think they were), that feels like they're doing some kind of "We're not sanitized like the WWE, look at us endangering each other!" I guess the central point is that wrestling (all of it) is dangerous and hurts, and hardcore wrestling when done right is often something that while the pain is obvious in the moment, won't do as long term damage as the stuff we really take for granted as part of the art form, so why shouldn't it be treated as spectacle in the same way as any other style? I mean, I never said you shouldn't treat it as spectacle; I'm trying to explain why I can't (and thus get insight on why others can). The entire point of going into barbed wire and then showing everyone your actual cuts (and, to a lesser extent, the entire point of chop battles) is that this pain we see is REAL, not that fake selling stuff. It is meant to call attention to the toughness (and willingness to do extreme things) of the PERFORMER. I'm saying it's SUPPOSED to bring you out of kayfabe; that's the entire reason anyone does it. Or maybe it's more accurate to say it creates a second layer of kayfabe, a "realer" one. But you can't make things realer without reminding everyone that everything else is faker. That's what brings me out of it. I guess the thing is, I go into watching wrestling seeing a pretty sharp distinction between wrestler and performer; I seem them as different as actor and role in a play. If Colby Corino, the performer, withstands real pain, that doesn't translate to me that his CHARACTER is withstanding pain. But if someone comes in with that distinction blurred in their heads, it makes more sense that seeing the real pain would draw them in to the drama of the match instead of jolt them out of it. I mean, the other thing is, I just am not particularly impressed by seeing people fall onto barbed wire? Cool flippy highspots are fun and exciting. Someone falling onto a chair and then rolling around is a snooze. That doesn't mean no one could possibly build a match around spots like that and I'd be into it. But it'd have to be REALLY good in the storytelling to make up for the fact that the spots are dull, to me.
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repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,049
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Post by repomark on Apr 17, 2024 1:52:23 GMT -5
I think there should be limits as the whole point of being a good worker is not to hurt your opponent but making it look real. Genuinely hurting someone removes any skill (or art as Bret Hart would put it).
Everything in wrestling should be controlled as much as possible. This is a bit of a challenge when doing high spots (how do you learn to fall of a 20foot ladder) but I see no reason at all that certain weapons are brought into play without being gimmicked. Light tubes, staples, glass, real barbed wire, thumb tacks - all of these things I do not enjoy seeing used for real as it crosses the line into genuinely hurting yourself/your opponent. From there itâs no longer selling, just watching peopleâs genuine pain.
There is a place for no dq style matches where plunder comes into play, but these should be infrequent and only to decide major blood feuds. They shouldnât just be someoneâs style for every match as then they lose any impact at all. That said, even if there is a compelling story leading in they can still go too far for me - the Swerve v Hangman blood drinking match being the best recent example I can think of.
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Post by koreycaskets on Apr 19, 2024 8:31:29 GMT -5
With me it's funny I absolutely loved ECW and still rewatch old matches from it but I think Death Matches are dumb as shit.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,400
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Apr 19, 2024 12:45:13 GMT -5
If paced right a good NO DQ match is a blast.
But it takes at least one wrestler that knows how to work one right.
Seen many street fight matches that went all through the venue,outside and back inside and guess what both guys were good afterwards and the crowd loved the match.
If done right I love a good extreme/hardcore match. But it has to have a reason.
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Post by THE FVNKER on Apr 19, 2024 17:37:20 GMT -5
If paced right a good NO DQ match is a blast. But it takes at least one wrestler that knows how to work one right. Seen many street fight matches that went all through the venue,outside and back inside and guess what both guys were good afterwards and the crowd loved the match. If done right I love a good extreme/hardcore match. But it has to have a reason. I liked death match wrestling as a teenager, Iâd guess largely due to the shock value of it and just the sheer insanity.. but by and large my favorite type of âhardcoreâ match would definitely be a good street fight, or any other match where it leaves the ring/arena for awhile. A notable one sticking out in my mind was Chris Harris vs. James Storm in TNA, I think Iâve only seen it once but if Iâm remembering correctly it was amazing.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,400
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Apr 19, 2024 19:14:52 GMT -5
My #2 match I saw last year was a hardcore match pretty much. They fought outside the ring. And just beat the hell out of each other. Then after teh pinfall the winner walked over and looked like he was about to use hhis chain too beat the loser. Nope he reaches down offers a hand. Helps the loser up then they hugged.
One thing the deep south still does on good indies is long term storylines.
The match above was one that was slowly built to over 4 years.Was the first time these two faced each otehr in the ring and besides the NWA womens title defense later,was Kamille vs Lufisto,this was the best match of the 2 day show. Storyline was finished. And the crowd left happy.
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wgdj
AC Slater
Posts: 187
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Post by wgdj on Apr 19, 2024 20:03:30 GMT -5
To the OP:
It sounds like you saw a lousy amateur indie match...
With respect, were you around when this style of wrestling started becoming popular in the '90s?
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wankah
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,380
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Post by wankah on Apr 20, 2024 7:36:19 GMT -5
It's like hardcore music, really. You'll do your gig for beer/food money, and you'll sell your merch for gas. And all that bother, for that. It is a lifestyle for a niche. And I'm in that niche.
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