Why do people like extreme matches?

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

I went to a wrestling show yesterday, and it was largely great. But one match was no-DQ, and it put me in a weird position of sitting there, bored and baffled by what I was watching, while a bunch of people around me had a great time. I am genuinely curious here about what I'm missing, here. What are people seeing that causes them to get something out of matches like this?

One issue for me is, the pace of these matches tends to be really methodical. Every big spot has an interminably long set-up, and after every spot, everyone rolls around forever while the referee moves wreckage out of the way. That might be okay, but the spots themselves are just nothing to me. The big centerpiece spot of this particular match was someone going through a table with barbed wire on it, and like... nothing about that is impressive or interesting to me. I'm looking at the cuts all over this guy's back and wondering what everyone else is so excited about.

And I have a hard time getting transported into a match if I keep being reminded about the real person's real pain. It's like, in The Shining, a lot of Shelley Duvall's performance lost its effectiveness when I heard about how Kubrick treated her on the set. I'm trying to care about Wendy, but seeing Duvall's distress just makes me think about HER, not about Wendy.

(This particular match also had just a huge problem: midway through, they set up a table in the ring. Then they proceeded to do a bunch of near-falls. But like, obviously the match isn't going to end until they use that table, so there's no tension to anything until they do.)

I know, different strokes: I'm not trying to be convinced into liking this style of match. But I do want better insight on what people who DO enjoy them are getting out of it.

[Mozenrath]

At their best, they can feel like a visceral release of tension, a blow off to a hot feud or a continuation of a long-brewing rivalry. They can also allow for creative spots to take things to a place where it can seem like the limits of what wrestling offense can be are being tested.

Realistically, though, only some of those matches reach that height, and many can be very performative and difficult to take terribly seriously as you watch someone patiently hold the light tubes some guy is about to crush into him, or the seconds feel like hours as someone sets up a table that keeps on collapsing while everyone watches him swear under his breath in embarrassment, blood all over his shitty tanktop.

[Zone Was Wrong]

Same reason kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch

[XIII]

Theoretically it’s the same reason that people like gory horror movies.

More realistically nine times out of ten it’s two fat weird looking dudes out there cutting each other up because they hate themselves.

[Hit Girl]

I don't.

It's not wrestling.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Apr 15, 2024 20:50:27 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

At their best, they can feel like a visceral release of tension, a blow off to a hot feud or a continuation of a long-brewing rivalry. They can also allow for creative spots to take things to a place where it can seem like the limits of what wrestling offense can be are being tested.

Realistically, though, only some of those matches reach that height, and many can be very performative and difficult to take terribly seriously as you watch someone patiently hold the light tubes some guy is about to crush into him, or the seconds feel like hours as someone sets up a table that keeps on collapsing while everyone watches him swear under his breath in embarrassment, blood all over his shitty tanktop.

Fair enough, though I will say this particular match had none of those positive qualities you mention, and people were into it. I think especially I can understand enjoying inventiveness in weapon matches, but this was, y'know, table table barbed wire table.

It also didn't have any of the particularly negative qualities. I wouldn't say it was badly done at all. The participants were pros (it was Masato Tanaka vs. Colby Corino), and it wasn't like I couldn't perceive a storyline to things. It was kind of a dumb, one-note storyline (Corino challenges himself against the great master, gets completely demolished, but through the power of not selling fighting spirit, he prevails), but they communicated it to me, and keeping it simple is good, sometimes. It's just, I woulda cared a lot more if they'd just done the same thing in a straight wrestling match.

[GOTHIC CHARISMA 🧊 🥶❄️FURY]

It really depends on the crowd. I prefer a less extreme type of hardcore match personally but every few years I can get hyped for a really grotesque match.

There is part of the crowd that has their "fight at hockey game/crash at nascar race/etc." part of the brain go off though and I would imagine they're not thinking of it being real or technical or whatever, they're just enjoying some dude using weapons that you wouldn't think a human being could take being hit with. It's the same as people who like really high flying risky movesets and matches, they can suspend their logic because of how cool seeing that was for them. A lot of those matches have downtime where you can tell they're dragging ass until the next flip to the outside but not in such a visceral way if that makes sense.

[Viking Hall]

Because life would be boring if we liked the same thing.

[THE FVNKER]

The spectacle. The “car crash” nature of it. The novelty.

Apr 15, 2024 21:20:15 GMT -5 Hit Girl said:

I don't.

It's not wrestling.

By gah, they do it in wrestling promotions, in a wrestling ring, and use wrestling moves. I don’t know what you think it is.. but just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it not wrestling.

I understand how polarizing hardcore wrestling can be, and even more-so once you get to the deathmatch specific side of things as it’s pretty shocking stuff, and admittedly lacking in what a lot of people consider traditional wrestling qualities.. but at its very base, wrestling is performance art and extreme wrestling belongs all the same.

The “it’s not wrestling” argument uses the same logical path as the “it’s just noise/I can’t understand them because they’re screaming” argument when talking about heavy metal. It doesn’t it make it not music because it isn’t your idea of it.

[Bo Rida]

It's a heightened form of wrestling, it amplifies the good and bad.

Take a chop battle. Some find them lame, overdone, kill pacing and just be stupid as they take turns hitting each other. When you suspend belief it's intense, tells a story and shows fighting spirit. Some will always have the same view but for the most the skill of the performers often determines how entertaining it is. Replace chops with light tubes and those feelings are enhanced either way. It's easy to suspend disbelief when the glass is flying, it's easy to think it's moronic.

It's why to me the best deathmatch wrestlers are usually great in regular matches. Funk, Foley, Mox, Drew Parker, Rina Yamashita, Masha Slamovich etc. They know how to use phycology well.

It works particularly well when you put someone unexpected in that environment, HHH surviving Cactus Jack, Cardona becoming the deathmatch king. It shows different sides to wrestlers and creates more rounded characters.

[tirtefaa]

Apr 15, 2024 21:11:42 GMT -5 XIII said:

Theoretically it’s the same reason that people like gory horror movies.

Apr 16, 2024 4:36:33 GMT -5 THE FVNKER said:

The novelty.

Yeah, I mean there's a taboo to such things, so I think it's born out of the idea that you're watching something you're not supposed to watch.

When I was 9, being able to say you watched the Friday the 13th movies came off as kind of edgy, so I think that idea persists. That said, I think most people tend to shift away from it once they get older.

[Can you afford to pay me, Gah]

Apr 16, 2024 4:37:28 GMT -5 Bo Rida said:

It's a heightened form of wrestling, it amplifies the good and bad.

Take a chop battle. Some find them lame, overdone, kill pacing and just be stupid as they take turns hitting each other. When you suspend belief it's intense, tells a story and shows fighting spirit. Some will always have the same view but for the most the skill of the performers often determines how entertaining it is. Replace chops with light tubes and those feelings are enhanced either way. It's easy to suspend disbelief when the glass is flying, it's easy to think it's moronic.

It's why to me the best deathmatch wrestlers are usually great in regular matches. Funk, Foley, Mox, Drew Parker, Rina Yamashita, Masha Slamovich etc. They know how to use phycology well.

It works particularly well when you put someone unexpected in that environment, HHH surviving Cactus Jack, Cardona becoming the deathmatch king. It shows different sides to wrestlers and creates more rounded characters.

This is the best answer. The style is very much for a very select crowd. These days there are to many guys who do these matches who don't really no how to do anything else but hit each with weapons'. As using the Paul Heyman saying mask the negatives. Because so many aren't popularly trained and had very little training. So you really to like it or get a good one is harder because who is in it matters. Its hard to convince someone to like a style they hate and the OG poster wants it to be explained.

The issue is that its such a much shorter list of people who can do that style of wrestling but can do a normal match and do what was said in phycology. That where its harder because your more likely on the indies going to end up with two barely train guys who look like they just left the truck stop stumble around the ring hitting each other with weapons, than you will get someone who can legit work.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Apr 16, 2024 4:37:28 GMT -5 Bo Rida said:

It's a heightened form of wrestling, it amplifies the good and bad.

Take a chop battle. Some find them lame, overdone, kill pacing and just be stupid as they take turns hitting each other. When you suspend belief it's intense, tells a story and shows fighting spirit. Some will always have the same view but for the most the skill of the performers often determines how entertaining it is. Replace chops with light tubes and those feelings are enhanced either way. It's easy to suspend disbelief when the glass is flying, it's easy to think it's moronic.

This is interesting, because, as I mentioned above, I absolutely do not find it easy to suspend my disbelief with this sort of match, because the real injuries and blood and pain inherently cause me to stop thinking about the show and start thinking about the actors.

It's actually the same for chop battles, and the reason why I hate those. The entire point of them is "this really hurts, in real, not-fake-wrestling life. Look how tough we are actually feeling actual pain." It completely takes me out of it, because the entire, deliberate purpose is to remind me about the real people in the ring, not the wrestlers involved in the story. Sure, it can be done better or worse, and I'd even wager that there's certain characters and gimmicks I could admit it working for... if it's a great character moment, that can be transporting. But man is it an uphill climb, because the spot inherently gathers everyone around to whisper "Look, THIS is actually real, unlike the rest of that fake wrestling stuff!"

[FinalGwen]

Apr 16, 2024 5:19:02 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

Apr 16, 2024 4:37:28 GMT -5 Bo Rida said:

It's a heightened form of wrestling, it amplifies the good and bad.

Take a chop battle. Some find them lame, overdone, kill pacing and just be stupid as they take turns hitting each other. When you suspend belief it's intense, tells a story and shows fighting spirit. Some will always have the same view but for the most the skill of the performers often determines how entertaining it is. Replace chops with light tubes and those feelings are enhanced either way. It's easy to suspend disbelief when the glass is flying, it's easy to think it's moronic.

This is interesting, because, as I mentioned above, I absolutely do not find it easy to suspend my disbelief with this sort of match, because the real injuries and blood and pain inherently cause me to stop thinking about the show and start thinking about the actors.

It's actually the same for chop battles, and the reason why I hate those. The entire point of them is "this really hurts, in real, not-fake-wrestling life. Look how tough we are actually feeling actual pain." It completely takes me out of it, because the entire, deliberate purpose is to remind me about the real people in the ring, not the wrestlers involved in the story. Sure, it can be done better or worse, and I'd even wager that there's certain characters and gimmicks I could admit it working for... if it's a great character moment, that can be transporting. But man is it an uphill climb, because the spot inherently gathers everyone around to whisper "Look, THIS is actually real, unlike the rest of that fake wrestling stuff!"

At the same time, we've had actual deaths in the ring occur from dropkicks and back suplexes, and we don't stop thinking about the wrestling when they happen. And I don't think it was barbed wire that's caused all the problems to Mick Foley's long term health. If anything, stuff like barbed wire, blood, etc. is more a case of something that looks spectacular and makes the audience react without doing the really dangerous stuff like wild neck bumps (although obviously sometimes both happen, so maybe moot point).

[Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen]

Like anything else in wrestling, it’s very subjective. I like the risks the performers are willing to go to, to tell their story. It’s suspension of disbelief. If you don’t like in that’s fine. But to completely dismiss it is a great oversight.

To echo what Bo Rida said, it’s best done when it’s someone who is an excellent worker is in a match. Masha Slamovich and Rina Yamashita are two prime examples. When each are involved in a deathmatch you know it’s going to be good. The two together is magic. There’s beauty in the destruction.

But again it’s suspension of disbelief. It’s a whole different world from “standard” wrestling. Kasey Catal’s fire up comeback of smashing a ton of tubes on her opponent then hitting a flying chair drop looks silly in a standard setting but in the deathmatch world it’s amazing.

If you don’t like it, that’s fine. I can’t watch lucha. It’s just not for me.

[tafkaga]

My favorite 'extreme' matches were the WCW variety where Public Enemy and the Nasties were bashing each other over the head with tin foil baking pans for 10 minutes and Tony, Dusty, and Bobby were just busting a gut the whole time. Those were fun. So, as some kind of a comedy sideshow break from regularly scheduled programming, they can be kind of fun. Otherwise, I think they are fairly boring.

Wrestling is most enjoyable to me when it emulates a real sporting contest, with rules and athletes who perform in such a way that I can suspend disbelief and imagine I'm seeing a contest instead of a cooperative dance.

[SkullTrauma]

Apr 15, 2024 20:42:18 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

And I have a hard time getting transported into a match if I keep being reminded about the real person's real pain. It's like, in The Shining, a lot of Shelley Duvall's performance lost its effectiveness when I heard about how Kubrick treated her on the set. I'm trying to care about Wendy, but seeing Duvall's distress just makes me think about HER, not about Wendy.

I like garbage wrestling because I don't think about/particularly care about stuff like that. If meatbags want to bleed for my entertainment, bring it on.

[Hit Girl]

Apr 16, 2024 4:36:33 GMT -5 THE FVNKER said:

The spectacle. The “car crash” nature of it. The novelty.

Apr 15, 2024 21:20:15 GMT -5 Hit Girl said:

I don't.

It's not wrestling.

By gah, they do it in wrestling promotions, in a wrestling ring, and use wrestling moves. I don’t know what you think it is.. but just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it not wrestling.

I understand how polarizing hardcore wrestling can be, and even more-so once you get to the deathmatch specific side of things as it’s pretty shocking stuff, and admittedly lacking in what a lot of people consider traditional wrestling qualities.. but at its very base, wrestling is performance art and extreme wrestling belongs all the same.

The “it’s not wrestling” argument uses the same logical path as the “it’s just noise/I can’t understand them because they’re screaming” argument when talking about heavy metal. It doesn’t it make it not music because it isn’t your idea of it.

Wrestling is based on athletic skill and expertise, often taking years to attain, with compelling storylines and characters, not flaming tables, barbed wire and broken lightbulbs.

[Mozenrath]

Apr 16, 2024 6:55:00 GMT -5 FinalGwen said:

Apr 16, 2024 5:19:02 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

This is interesting, because, as I mentioned above, I absolutely do not find it easy to suspend my disbelief with this sort of match, because the real injuries and blood and pain inherently cause me to stop thinking about the show and start thinking about the actors.

It's actually the same for chop battles, and the reason why I hate those. The entire point of them is "this really hurts, in real, not-fake-wrestling life. Look how tough we are actually feeling actual pain." It completely takes me out of it, because the entire, deliberate purpose is to remind me about the real people in the ring, not the wrestlers involved in the story. Sure, it can be done better or worse, and I'd even wager that there's certain characters and gimmicks I could admit it working for... if it's a great character moment, that can be transporting. But man is it an uphill climb, because the spot inherently gathers everyone around to whisper "Look, THIS is actually real, unlike the rest of that fake wrestling stuff!"

At the same time, we've had actual deaths in the ring occur from dropkicks and back suplexes, and we don't stop thinking about the wrestling when they happen. And I don't think it was barbed wire that's caused all the problems to Mick Foley's long term health. If anything, stuff like barbed wire, blood, etc. is more a case of something that looks spectacular and makes the audience react without doing the really dangerous stuff like wild neck bumps (although obviously sometimes both happen, so maybe moot point).

Yep, hell, Foley has outright said he REALLY dislikes German suplexes and did not want to take them. His knees and back took a lot of abuse, and his head, but he did not like bumping on his neck.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

For one thing, based on your description, you have never seen a good one with actual psychology

Yes, these matches can have psychology

I am on the bus now but I want to properly weigh in on this later and reply to many of the above responses