Are there too many kickouts? Simplement Deux!

[schma]

So, I know kickouts have been standard fare for many many years. There are plenty of examples of finisher fests, it's nothing new. However, the France crowd going "Simplement Deux!" then *clap clap clap clap* "Simplement Deux" every time one happened really drove home just how many there were. I went from loving the crowd on Smackdown to wanting them to shut up by the second or third match of Backlash. Well not shut up, but maybe dial it back a notch.

Either way, it really feels that much like a superkick which is treated as being on the level of a punch these days, we see pin attempts so often that they don't feel climactic in any way. We know it's not gonna be a 3 if everyone hasn't gotten their spots in. Should they dial back on the pin attempts? Should they do even more pin attempts? I'm not necessarily talking about roll up attempts. Those have their place. Perhaps some matches should have few kickouts, while the really big important ones get more? I'm too lazy to go back and count but I would be surprised if any of the Backlash matches had fewer than 10 pin attempts.

Many years ago when I was a child it was rare someone went for a pin attempt and rarer still to see a kickout. I don't think we necessarily need to go back to that, but perhaps find an appropriate middle ground?

[UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm]

love the download a kick out option, I see you

I can take the simplement deux chants as a one time thing, I think this sort of thing really comes down to personal preferences. I don’t get much out of kickout spam when there’s no realistic chance a roll up can end a match but I do love it when there’s a grip of them in a technical match.

basically it’s this

Gunther matches = great use of multiple kick outs, will almost always work because any move can end the match and the visual of an almost undefeated man being close to being defeated

ZSJ vs Danielson = great use of multiple kick outs, less about trying to sneak a cheeky 1-2-3 and more about exhausting the opponent making them constantly kick out

Kane vs Big Show = nobody thinks your goofy asses are going to end the match unless there’s a chokeslam

Ricochet vs JD = get on with it already

[schma]

Yeah, there are matches where the kickouts are used to great effect, especially when you see the frustration on the wrestlers faces and they play up that they thought that was it. I guess tonight it felt like a lot of the pin attempts were just there because reasons before moving on to the next segment of moves.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

This is a different debate from the usual one about finisher kickouts. Probably because there isn’t usually this much attention drawn to them by the live crowds.

[Super Duper Dragunov]

Nah, kickouts are how you can build the drama and tension in the art of storytelling in a wrestling ring. And with the right crowd that's willing to be taken on that ride it can absolutely enhance any match.

I think you copy and paste this crowd onto like GUNTHER vs. Sheamus vs Drew and it would've lost something due to how the crowd were too busy waiting to react and sing rather than being taken on that journey WITH the wrestlers.
They wanted to be the journey themselves no matter what.

But I get it. They were excited. I do hope this isn't the standard for international shows though. There has to be a happy medium.

Like, they weren't disrespectful, but I think Cody vs. Aj happens with a more 'locked in' crowd they would have been taken on a helluva ride because it was just a damn good wrestling match.

The fans in France were too busy singing and dancing to allow themselves to fully invest.

Their excitement went from being infectious to a potential detriment to the attempted storytelling going on.

As I've said a few times though, better a raucous crowd than a dead one. I'd hate to have seen Aj vs. Cody in front of like Corpus Cristi. So at least it wasn't wasted.

[schma]

May 5, 2024 3:04:09 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

This is a different debate from the usual one about finisher kickouts. Probably because there isn’t usually this much attention drawn to them by the live crowds.

Yeah, I was thinking somewhat of that debate but just in general it feels like there are more kickout attempts than ever. However, I think a big part was the crowd highlighting it.

However, we saw great subversion of the finisher kickouts tonight with Cody/AJ where rather than kicking out of the finishers, they often prevented them, like they had scouted them and had counters. As such, many of their kickouts were not the moves you'd expect. It wasn't huge but it was nice so see some variation.

The crowd highlighting the finishers though was definitely what put me over the top on creating a discussion about it.

[Woo]

Backlash was fine, WrestleMania was too many.

[polarbearpete]

May 5, 2024 2:48:42 GMT -5 schma said:

So, I know kickouts have been standard fare for many many years. There are plenty of examples of finisher fests, it's nothing new. However, the France crowd going "Simplement Deux!" then *clap clap clap clap* "Simplement Deux" every time one happened really drove home just how many there were. I went from loving the crowd on Smackdown to wanting them to shut up by the second or third match of Backlash. Well not shut up, but maybe dial it back a notch.

Either way, it really feels that much like a superkick which is treated as being on the level of a punch these days, we see pin attempts so often that they don't feel climactic in any way. We know it's not gonna be a 3 if everyone hasn't gotten their spots in. Should they dial back on the pin attempts? Should they do even more pin attempts? I'm not necessarily talking about roll up attempts. Those have their place. Perhaps some matches should have few kickouts, while the really big important ones get more? I'm too lazy to go back and count but I would be surprised if any of the Backlash matches had fewer than 10 pin attempts.

Many years ago when I was a child it was rare someone went for a pin attempt and rarer still to see a kickout. I don't think we necessarily need to go back to that, but perhaps find an appropriate middle ground?

False finishes are more frequent now, but I don’t really remember a time where it was rare for pin attempts and kickouts to happen in a match. Heck, Steamboat-Savage had 22 two-counts.

[schma]

May 5, 2024 7:14:10 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

May 5, 2024 2:48:42 GMT -5 schma said:

So, I know kickouts have been standard fare for many many years. There are plenty of examples of finisher fests, it's nothing new. However, the France crowd going "Simplement Deux!" then *clap clap clap clap* "Simplement Deux" every time one happened really drove home just how many there were. I went from loving the crowd on Smackdown to wanting them to shut up by the second or third match of Backlash. Well not shut up, but maybe dial it back a notch.

Either way, it really feels that much like a superkick which is treated as being on the level of a punch these days, we see pin attempts so often that they don't feel climactic in any way. We know it's not gonna be a 3 if everyone hasn't gotten their spots in. Should they dial back on the pin attempts? Should they do even more pin attempts? I'm not necessarily talking about roll up attempts. Those have their place. Perhaps some matches should have few kickouts, while the really big important ones get more? I'm too lazy to go back and count but I would be surprised if any of the Backlash matches had fewer than 10 pin attempts.

Many years ago when I was a child it was rare someone went for a pin attempt and rarer still to see a kickout. I don't think we necessarily need to go back to that, but perhaps find an appropriate middle ground?

False finishes are more frequent now, but I don’t really remember a time where it was rare for pin attempts and kickouts to happen in a match. Heck, Steamboat-Savage had 22 two-counts.

It could well be that I'm remembering badly from childhood. I'm not sure if I saw that one even though I know it's considered one of the best matches ever. It more feels like when I was a kid, if someone went for the 3 count that was it. However, it could just be me mostly remembering the Hogan legdrop. During Hulkamania few kicked out from that. I fully acknowledge that I may not be a reliable narrator in this case.

[Doo Doo Dickhead]

What drives me nuts is when wrestlers make the shocked face after a move they've never beaten anyone with before gets only a 2 count.

[john84]

May 5, 2024 14:28:38 GMT -5 Doo Doo Dickhead said:

What drives me nuts is when wrestlers make the shocked face after a move they've never beaten anyone with before gets only a 2 count.

Yeah, that makes me lol tbh. I'm fine when Peter does the shocked face because he's still learning when it comes to wrestling but as someone who's watched wrestling for a long time it makes me laugh when they do it.

[Cyno]

As far back as I started watching (late 90s), both WCW and WWF had a fair bunch of kickout attempts. At least for the higher end matches.

[Nr1Humanoid]

The main problem is the announcers making 99 percent of kickouts obvious.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Once the "always try for a pin" style got in place, I actually find it hard to go back to watching matches where pin attempts are rarer. I think it generally leads to livelier matches that have less pausing and lying around, and I can get behind "always try the pin just in case/wear out your opponent by forcing them to get up" as a sort of default meta-psychology across matches.