Big Pun(isher) > All other rappers

[What?]

Seriously, when it comes to lyricism and flow, this man is untouchable. 2Pac was an amazing poet but he didn't really vary his flow that much if ever. Biggie was an amazing lyricist but still IMO he can't touch Pun. Big Pun was something else but unfortunately wasn't around long enough to really change the game as much as he could have. I seriously think if Pun was around today, corny fools like Jibbs wouldn't be in the game.




Dead in the middle of Little Italy little did we know
that we riddled some middleman who didn't do diddily

[acressl]

I state my appreciation of Big Pun. I don't care for rap really but I always liked his style. Then just like that he was gone.

[thwak is T.hawk]

his son is actually a REALLY good rapper too. espicially for his age.

but yeah pun's nice. I wouldn't say he's the best rapper though.

[Insomniac]

Let's see how many rappers I can name off the top of my head who are betters MCs and have better flow than Big Pun: Snoop Doog (specifically early Snoop, like on Doggystyle), MF Doom, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Rakim, Slick Rick, Black Thought, Chuck D, Pharoahe Monch, Jay-Z, Erick Sermon, Grandmaster Flash, Kool Keith (aka Dr. Octagon), Fresh Prince (Not Will Smith, but Fresh Prince when he was with Jazzy Jeff), Common, Q-Tip, LL Cool J (see: Radio), Big Daddy Kane, KRS-One, Nas, Lyrics Born, Lupe Fiasco, Kool G Rap, Jedi Mind Tricks, Biz Markie.

Nothing against Big Pun, but I personally don't consider him one of the best in terms of flow or lyrics. Not even Top 20.

[thwak is T.hawk]

insomniac34 said:

Let's see how many rappers I can name off the top of my head who are betters MCs and have better flow than Big Pun: Snoop Doog (specifically early Snoop, like on Doggystyle), MF Doom, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Rakim, Slick Rick, Black Thought, Chuck D, Pharoahe Monch, Jay-Z, Erick Sermon, Grandmaster Flash, Kool Keith (aka Dr. Octagon), Fresh Prince (Not Will Smith, but Fresh Prince when he was with Jazzy Jeff), Common, Q-Tip, LL Cool J (see: Radio), Big Daddy Kane, KRS-One, Nas, Lyrics Born.

Nothing against Big Pun, but I personally don't consider him one of the best in terms of flow or lyrics. Not even Top 20.

there's some problems with your list that I'll like to point out

first of mf doom is a no
grandmaster flash didn't even rap
kool kein - no
will smith, while severly underrated as a rapper (I know a man who honest to goodness thinks he's the best rapper ever, and he listens to ALOT of rap) is not better then pun.
common is a no, then again I never liked common
nas is also a no since I put him in the same catagory with mf doom.

pun's definitly top 20, no denying that. nothing against your list of rapppers there, but to say that all of them are better then pun is very up for debate.

[Insomniac]

thwak said:

insomniac34 said:

Let's see how many rappers I can name off the top of my head who are betters MCs and have better flow than Big Pun: Snoop Doog (specifically early Snoop, like on Doggystyle), MF Doom, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Rakim, Slick Rick, Black Thought, Chuck D, Pharoahe Monch, Jay-Z, Erick Sermon, Grandmaster Flash, Kool Keith (aka Dr. Octagon), Fresh Prince (Not Will Smith, but Fresh Prince when he was with Jazzy Jeff), Common, Q-Tip, LL Cool J (see: Radio), Big Daddy Kane, KRS-One, Nas, Lyrics Born.

Nothing against Big Pun, but I personally don't consider him one of the best in terms of flow or lyrics. Not even Top 20.

there's some problems with your list that I'll like to point out

first of mf doom is a no
grandmaster flash didn't even rap
kool kein - no
will smith, while severly underrated as a rapper (I know a man who honest to goodness thinks he's the best rapper ever, and he listens to ALOT of rap) is not better then pun.
common is a no, then again I never liked common
nas is also a no since I put him in the same catagory with mf doom.

pun's definitly top 20, no denying that. nothing against your list of rapppers there, but to say that all of them are better then pun is very up for debate.

I agree that it's all up for debate, you could argue for and against a lot of rappers.

MF Doom - Incredible flow, no other way to put it. The guy does it on the mic and in the studio, great at using metaphors. Not a socially conscious rapper, but an extremely entertaining MC who is always fun to listen to.

Kool Keith - This is a personal favorite of mine and I understand that not everyone cares for him. I consider his work to be an acquired taste. I didn't get into "Dr. Octagonecologyst" at first btu it eventually won me over. Again, very uniqe with the lyrics, a bit crazy, but he's one of my Top 20 for sure.

Will Smith - He lost his claim to being one of the best MCs when he parted ways with Jazzy Jeff and focused more on movies and TV. I hated his newer stuff after he lost the Fresh Prince label. "He's the DJ, I'm the Rapper" is one of the best DJ/MC combos ever IMO, although not up there with the work of Eric B. & Rakim, not even close. "He's the DJ..." showcases Smith's impeccable flow, it's incredible. He goes right from one line into the other so fluidly.

Common - Lyrics, bar none, one of the best today. His lyrics actually mean something compared to most rappers today. And I like his voice a lot, very smooth. Definitely an underrated MC.

For the OP to say Big Pun is greater than all rappers and is untouchable, I just can't agree with that at all. I know it's all a matter of personal preference/taste/opinion, but there are so many great MCs that are more deserving of that label over Big Pun.

EDIT: I mentioned Grandmaster Flash, that was my mistake. I was thinking of Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five when I wrote that down. There were a few different MCs as part of that group, but Melle Mel was the best (he was the first "MC").

[thwak is T.hawk]

let's not get into mf doom's flow.

the fact of the matter is, he's off beat... literally. except on dangerdoom, he's very bleh and monatone. I know it's his gimmick but hey whatever. also his lyrics can be downright awful sometimes. "big fan of dan akryod" and "hell is hot as hell boss" to name a few. the funny thing is, I like doom too. but damn I'm not gonna go around and praise him like he's the best thing ever like so many mf doom fans do. he brings diversity into hip hop, but damnit because he does that doesn't mean he's the GOAT.

kool keith is just... yeah. he's not for everybody and he does do some good things on his albums, but I wouldn't go around saying he's better then pun.

will smith, again I wouldn't say he's better then pun but he's damn good. also his most recent album was damn good too.

common, again I always hated common so I'll just agree to disagree here.

[Insomniac]

Mf Doom can be very erratic with his lyrics, all over the place at times, but that's what makes him so fun to listen to IMO. And we'll just have to agree to disagree on his flow. No matter what moniker he uses (King Gheedorah, Viktor Vaughn, etc.), I always find his work to be entertaining.

The problem with Will Smith is that there are so many people out there who, when they think of his rap work, they think of the Men In Black themes or "Gettin' Jiggy Wit It". Those are the worst examples of Will Smith on the mic. He's got a very good voice and was just a fun lyricist. He was positive, didn't talk about negative things like violence or drugs or whatever.

As for Common, it's not much of an argument to say you hate him. "I Used to Love H.E.R." is as beautiful a hip-hop song as I've ever heard. The lyrics are great and that much more meaningful when you realize what he's actually talking about. All in all, he actually talks about something meaningful in a day when rap has such a negative image.

[thwak is T.hawk]

now looking back on your list though.

I can't smurfing belive you put vinnie paz on there. WHY IN GOD'S NAME DID YOU PUT VINNIE PAZ ON THERE?!

sorry but come on... vinnie paz... better then anyone? really? come on.

[NIXON]

It's amazing how much better rappers become after they are dead. I bet if Fred Durst died tomorrow he would be hailed as one of the best of all time. Pun was decent I guess. Nothing special IMO. Were he still alive, he would just be another guy providing intros to crappy pop songs by Fergie and Rihanna and Furtado etc.
Also, Common is really terrible IMO. To even mention his name as a great is a travesty to me.
Anyone listen to Immortal Technique? That guy is a great rapper AND he makes you think.

[Insomniac]

thwak said:

now looking back on your list though.

I can't smurfing belive you put vinnie paz on there. WHY IN GOD'S NAME DID YOU PUT VINNIE PAZ ON THERE?!

sorry but come on... vinnie paz... better then anyone? really? come on.

Yeah, got me on that one, don't know what I was thinking there. Putting him on a list with names like Kool G Rap and Rakim is a slap in the face to those guys.

I've never heard anything from Immortal Technique, but I looked him up and he talks a lot about politics apparently and has worked with Mos Def and Chuck D, so I'll give him a listen. Thanks for mentioning him.

And Common, I just don't know what else I can say. I hate him for selling out to The Gap a couple years back, but I still like his early work. At least he isn't Kanye.

But I still stand by my earlier claim that, although he's decent, Big Pun is not one of the greatest MCs ever in terms of flow and lyrics. My opinion on this cannot be changed. He's alright, but he's nowhere near Rakim or Chuck D.

[Ðynamowolf: For Victoria!]

This should have been "Rakim > All other rappers". Nothing against Big Pun, as in, he wasn't bad, but there's just no way he's in that godly MC echelon.

As for Immortal Technique, I had the pleasure of seeing him live before, and believe what you hear - this man is the truth. Nothing but real talk. If flame could be spit, every one of his shows would leave embers.

[What?]

The title of the thread was simply meant as "he's excellent". I don't honestly mean that he's the greatest of all time. I've never sat down long enough to think about who truely is.

[heffer111]

only bad part about big pun is fat joe :/

[NIXON]

what said:

The title of the thread was simply meant as "he's excellent". I don't honestly mean that he's the greatest of all time. I've never sat down long enough to think about who truely is.

Well I have. And what's the answer!? Who's the man who leaves all other MC's in the dust? You guessed it...

Frank Stallone

[thwak is T.hawk]

I can't belive I'm the first one to say this but...

immortal tech sucks. hard.

I'm sorry, he's a good storyteller but after that he just turns into a REALLY bad rapper. him just trying to get political = I'd rather be listening to sabac.

[heffer111]

immortals pretty good

[NIXON]

thwak said:

I can't belive I'm the first one to say this but...

immortal tech sucks. hard.

I'm sorry, he's a good storyteller but after that he just turns into a REALLY bad rapper. him just trying to get political = I'd rather be listening to sabac.

I am confused. So he tells a good story, which he does while rapping, but his rapping sucks? So like maybe you have heard him telling stories round the campfire or something? Also, if he is good at one thing, how can he suck hard? You either suck hard or you don't.

[Redface: Dispenser of Justice]

The lack of appreaciation for Ghostface Killah here is criminal

[Insomniac]

losaphone said:

what said:

The title of the thread was simply meant as "he's excellent". I don't honestly mean that he's the greatest of all time. I've never sat down long enough to think about who truely is.

Well I have. And what's the answer!? Who's the man who leaves all other MC's in the dust? You guessed it...

Frank Stallone

There's only one thing as true as that: Germans love David Hasselhoff.

@ What?, didn't mean to take the thread the wrong way. Just that when I saw "Big Pun > All" I felt the need to jump at the defense of guys like Rakim and Chuck D, who are probably more deserving of the title "Best MC".

dynamowolf said:

This should have been "Rakim > All other rappers".

Now that I agree with, Rakim on the mic and Eric B on the cut. I've never heard any of Rakim's solo work, but him and Eric B made a great duo. "Paid in Full" is one of my top 3 hip hop albums, along with "It Takes a Nation" and "Straight Outta Compton".

redfacethecenamark said:

The lack of appreaciation for Ghostface Killah here is criminal

Like with Rakim, I haven't heard any of his solo work so I can't really comment, but a buddy of mine speaks very highly of him. I think Doom produced Ghostface's latest album, I'll definitely have to check that out once it comes out. The only song I've heard on that is "Angel" and I really liked it.