Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 28, 2007 13:05:22 GMT -5
This is a post from my boy on another forum (who is a member here too)...I thought it was so good I wanted to share it here. I'm still confused at how people seem to think WWE is not building "young talent." John Cena is, I believe, 28 years old. He is the biggest star in wrestling, by a mile. That is called building young talent. Look at some of the other headliners and key players over the past few months: Kennedy (prior to his injury) and MVP are two of the biggest players on Smackdown. I'm not sure about either's age, but I know I didn't know who the hell either of them was at this time in 2004, so they would qualify as fresh talent. ECW is being dominated by Lashley, CM Punk, Elijah Burke, Marcus Cor Von, Kevin Thorne and Matt Stryker. While these men all have different levels of levels of talent and potential, none could be considered "old hands." Burke, Punk and Lashley are clearly being groomed for superstardom. It is also pretty obvious that all three men possess that "it" quality that makes someone stand out. RAW is being led the least by a youth movement, but it is important to keep in mind that John Cena and Randy Orton are both young men, especially when using pro wrestling standards. Lahley is also getting a significant amount of his push on RAW. Aside from those three, Johnny Niro, Carlito and Santino Marella have all received signinficant pushes on RAW. I am sure that WWE still sees bright futures in guys such as Nitro and Kenny Dykstra, so it is not like RAW is being dominated by a bunch of old men. If people don't like the new guys that are being pushed, that is something else. However, I would bet that at least a few of those who say WWE should build young stars, then whiners about the young stars that are being built are probably among the same people who, in 2006, filled up the WrestleCrap forums with comments like, "You know, now that he is gone, looking back, that Rock guy was pretty good." Strong.
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Post by Michael Coello on May 28, 2007 13:07:06 GMT -5
I don't think people hate WWE building new stars.
Most people just think some of the new stars......suck.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 28, 2007 13:09:46 GMT -5
I don't think people hate WWE building new stars. Most people just think some of the new stars......suck. Precisely.
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EJS
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,857
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Post by EJS on May 28, 2007 13:13:52 GMT -5
Yeah, they aren't clinging to a ton of 40+ year olds like WCW was.
WWE is trying with young guys. People just either don't like them, or don't like their predictable super pushes.
Things could look up if they don't screw up guys like Kennedy, Burke, Punk, MVP, etc.
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Post by Avalanche Alvarez on May 28, 2007 13:13:58 GMT -5
I don't think people hate WWE building new stars. Most people just think some of the new stars......suck. True. And sadly, most of them do. Not their fault.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 28, 2007 13:15:53 GMT -5
I don't think people hate WWE building new stars. Most people just think some of the new stars......suck. Yeah I understand that part and if that is all it is that's subjective and that's cool...Personally I'm amazed at all the time some people spend here complaining about wrestling so much but that's another thread... ...it's when a guy like an HHH or HBK goes down, people go nuts saying that the WWE is screwed because they have built no new stars when they clearly have.
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Post by maxx420 on May 28, 2007 13:16:29 GMT -5
I'd just like to add at this point, Tommy Dreamer is younger than Monty Brown/ Marcus Cor Von.
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Post by Michael Coello on May 28, 2007 13:21:51 GMT -5
I'd just like to add at this point, Tommy Dreamer is younger than Monty Brown/ Marcus Cor Von.
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Post by 'Sweet n' Sour' A. A. Estrada on May 28, 2007 13:28:09 GMT -5
My problem is that they aren't doing much with Masters, Nitro or Kenny at the moment, guys I happen to like.
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Post by heyguesswhatidid on May 28, 2007 13:28:32 GMT -5
I'd just like to add at this point, Tommy Dreamer is younger than Monty Brown/ Marcus Cor Von. But CorVon is still a fresh/new star.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 28, 2007 13:28:59 GMT -5
My problem is that they aren't doing much with Masters, Nitro or Kenny at the moment, guys I happen to like. I feel the same way you do here. Add SB to that list too.
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Post by rrm15 on May 28, 2007 13:39:32 GMT -5
I think the argument was more accurate around 02-03 when Triple H and Undertaker and Angle were pretty much the only maineventers. Also, as has been said, a lot of people don't like the "new stars". I think they'll be fine, but now with all the injuries they're pretty much going to be forced to push guys like Elijah and Punk. Not that that's a bad thing...
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Post by willywonka666 on May 28, 2007 13:40:33 GMT -5
Yea I'm just not intrigued by these new stars at all-when I got into wrestling, most of the wrestlers were already established, and that proved they already had a personality-these new guys just don't to me. Thus, aside froma live event, to go hang out with friends, I don't really watch it much anymore
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Post by maxx420 on May 28, 2007 13:52:09 GMT -5
I'd just like to add at this point, Tommy Dreamer is younger than Monty Brown/ Marcus Cor Von. But CorVon is still a fresh/new star. Tommy Dreamer is younger, so he has more of a future to look forward to. Batista is still relatively new (when did he debut? 2002?), he's older than Dreamer & all. Cor Von isn't THAT fresh if you consider the fact that he was doing the same "Alpha Male" routine in TNA for years. Which reminds me, why do ex-WWE stars going to TNA get lambasted for carrying over gimmicks (like Christian Cage/ Tomko), but TNA guys going to WWE get a free pass on carrying over gimmicks (like Monty Brown)? Hypocritical double standards on THIS board? Unheard of!
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 28, 2007 13:53:06 GMT -5
But CorVon is still a fresh/new star. Tommy Dreamer is younger, so he has more of a future to look forward to. Batista is still relatively new (when did he debut? 2002?), he's older than Dreamer & all. Cor Von isn't THAT fresh if you consider the fact that he was doing the same "Alpha Male" routine in TNA for years. Which reminds me, why do ex-WWE stars going to TNA get lambasted for carrying over gimmicks (like Christian Cage/ Tomko), but TNA guys going to WWE get a free pass on carrying over gimmicks (like Monty Brown)? Hypocritical double standards on THIS board? Unheard of! I honestly haven't heard all that much complaining about Cage and Tomko carrying over into TNA.
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Post by maxx420 on May 28, 2007 13:56:56 GMT -5
Tommy Dreamer is younger, so he has more of a future to look forward to. Batista is still relatively new (when did he debut? 2002?), he's older than Dreamer & all. Cor Von isn't THAT fresh if you consider the fact that he was doing the same "Alpha Male" routine in TNA for years. Which reminds me, why do ex-WWE stars going to TNA get lambasted for carrying over gimmicks (like Christian Cage/ Tomko), but TNA guys going to WWE get a free pass on carrying over gimmicks (like Monty Brown)? Hypocritical double standards on THIS board? Unheard of! I honestly haven't heard all that much complaining about Cage and Tomko carrying over into TNA. There was at the time Tomko debuted. "TNA are unoriginal bastards. Stealing from WWE! Copying their every move again! TNA is SO stupid! Blah-de-blah-de-blah!" Largely, this came from the usual TNA bashing culprits. I think you can guess who I'm referring to. I'm naming no names.
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Post by Joe on May 28, 2007 14:08:02 GMT -5
Cor Von isn't THAT fresh if you consider the fact that he was doing the same "Alpha Male" routine in TNA for years. Which reminds me, why do ex-WWE stars going to TNA get lambasted for carrying over gimmicks (like Christian Cage/ Tomko), but TNA guys going to WWE get a free pass on carrying over gimmicks (like Monty Brown)? Hypocritical double standards on THIS board? Unheard of! Marcus Cor Von isn't broken down, but Dreamer certainly appears to be. Cor Von was doing his "Alpha Male" gimmick on TNA in 2004, sort of, although I haven't heard any mentions of the Serengeti, yet. Dreamer, on the other hand, was doing his "I'm Hardcore!" thing in ECW around '97. As for the question comparing guys going to TNA versus guys going to WWE, well, it's like this. Going from TNA to WWE: Similar to a kid being drafted from college and going to the NBA. It's a lifelong dream and he has finally made it to the big time. Going from WWE to TNA: Similar to a guy going from the NBA to an Italian League. Sure, there is the occasional Danny Ferry or Brian Shaw who decides to go over there for a year, for whatever reason, but most end up there because they can't cut it in the League.
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Post by Loki on May 28, 2007 14:47:32 GMT -5
WWE have indeed established new stars: Cena and Batista in primis . Then there's the lot of "young veterans" like Edge and Orton, and the "next generation": Kennedy, MVP, Punk, Burke, Nitro...
The problem is not the LACK of new (or newish) stars. The problem is: how many of these Stars will actually last?
I'm not gonna compare the new guys to icons like Hogan or Flair, not even to "short-lived" (for different reasons) phenomena like Rock or Austin, but I fear for some of them the Triple H, or even the Benoit level could be out of reach!
WWE stopped bulding up new stars like they should have: SLOWLY AND CONSISTENTLY. It worked with Hart, Michaels and Taker, just to name a few. Instead now they have only two ways:
1) Push to the moon, no matter what happens (Orton until 04, Cena 03-present, Lashley 06-present) 2) Quick "test" push, cut down abruptly if the poor sod can't get Hogan pops in a matter of months. Then he gets thrown in the midcard swamp
Sadly, most of the guys are getting the #2 treatment, so that's why we are "complaining". We know WWE has built Cena and Batista (doing a good job BTW), and are trying to do the same with Lashley. But behind them it's a revolving door with new guys getting pushed and depushed according to the need of the moment, based on the plans for the Golden Boys.
Two-Three guys are Golden Projects, the others are kinda there...
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The F'N Captain
King Koopa
I was captain **** till Captain America Beat the crap out of me and left me in a dumpster
Posts: 10,929
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Post by The F'N Captain on May 28, 2007 15:36:45 GMT -5
I have no issue with the whole "young talent" complaint that USED to plague WWE (remember when HHH pretty much just defended the belt against old WCW guys or random friends of his for like two years?). However, I think, in some effect, SOME new guys are presented wrong, or they themselves have not stepped up. Masters, Carlito, and Batista haven't given anyone any real "WOW!" moments. They more or less have the same match every outing, with MAYBE a move switch-up or an old move hauled out of the garage. With Carlito and Masters, it's not a HUGE deal as they aren't upper guys, Batista is the mainevent guy on SD! tho, and it affects the program.
THEN on the flip side you have the IWC hated. Orton, Cena, Lashley. Sure I know a lot of IWC guys like them, but they get a LOT of "nucleer heet" on the intarwebs.
Basically, WWE is in a rock/hard place situation. They DESPERATELY need a Rock or Austin. A guy who comes up who is universally either liked or at least respected.
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Post by Joe on May 28, 2007 16:49:42 GMT -5
Basically, WWE is in a rock/hard place situation. They DESPERATELY need a Rock or Austin. A guy who comes up who is universally either liked or at least respected. My following comments are not necessarily directed at you, but that is simply not going to happen. There was not a Rock or Austin before they hit the stage, and there probably won't be one for a long while, if ever. John Cena and Triple H are/ were close, in that they excell in virtually every facet of pro wrestling. In truth, though, there were a lot of members of the IWC who did not like Rock and/ or Austin, especially the Rock. Shocking as it may seem, being liked by the IWC is not a prerequisite for someone being a star or headliner in pro wrestling. Usually, it is just the opposite. If someone is a top level guy, a great portion of the IWC is going to hate him. I swear, I wish the IWC had been around in 1984. "What? Can you believe those bastards Jim Crockett and Fritz Von Erich are still trying to shove Kerry down out throats???!!! Mike is the one that should be getting the push! After all, he looks like one of us instead of some roided up freak like his brother does! "And Flair put him over with a backslide! A freaking backslide! This sucks! Those 50,000 people at Texas Stadium are a bunch of sheep! "Kerry's just getting over because his brother's dead! This is the most tasteless thing I have ever seen! It was gonna be David, but they just painted by numbers and used Kerry in his place! Heartless Bastards!" Yep. It would have been great.
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