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Post by thestinger on Jul 7, 2007 14:51:20 GMT -5
Guys with "workrate" are held to a higher standard on this forum, regardless of their history or actions (see Shawn Michaels, Benoit, etc).
If Debra was Warrior's ex, then very few would have a problem with her.
I understand. I think the rules should be the same for everyone, that's the piece I was missing here.
Thanks
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Jul 7, 2007 14:51:46 GMT -5
I stopped reading at this point. It's amazed me for years that anyone can have any respect or admiration for Steve Austin after the number of times he has beaten women. Guys with "workrate" are held to a higher standard on this forum, regardless of their history or actions (see Shawn Michaels, Benoit, etc). If Debra was Warrior's ex, then very few would have a problem with her. I'd have to concur, Luger who didn't actually kill Elizabeth is pretty much an outcast to most of the wrestling community, more than likely because he didn't put on great matches, but others with great "workrate" can murder their whole family and still have their careers celebrated.
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Post by Just "Dan" is Fine, Thank You on Jul 7, 2007 14:53:18 GMT -5
Guys with "workrate" are held to a higher standard on this forum, regardless of their history or actions (see Shawn Michaels, Benoit, etc). If Debra was Warrior's ex, then very few would have a problem with her. I'd have to concur, Luger who didn't actually kill Elizabeth is pretty much an outcast to most of the wrestling community, more than likely because he didn't put on great matches, but others with great "workrate" can murder their whole family and still have their careers celebrated. Right, because not being a murderer does not make your past matches better. And being a murderer does not make your past matches worse. TS Eliot was a fascist, but I love his poetry.
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Post by Fruity Delicious Skittles on Jul 7, 2007 14:55:04 GMT -5
I'd have to concur, Luger who didn't actually kill Elizabeth is pretty much an outcast to most of the wrestling community, more than likely because he didn't put on great matches, but others with great "workrate" can murder their whole family and still have their careers celebrated. Right, because not being a murderer does not make your past matches better. And being a murderer does not make your past matches worse. TS Eliot was a fascist, but I love his poetry. Indeed, but murderers shouldn't have their careers celebrated regardless of whether they were good or bad at their profession.
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Post by thestinger on Jul 7, 2007 14:57:08 GMT -5
Indeed, but murderers shouldn't have their careers celebrated regardless of whether they were good or bad at their profession. For the record, I agree 100%. I just don't see football fans celebrating OJ Simpson, even though he was one of the best players in NFL history. Similarly, few people praise Mike Tyson since he was convicted of raping a young woman. I just don't understand why wrestling fans are different.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Jul 7, 2007 14:57:26 GMT -5
I'd have to concur, Luger who didn't actually kill Elizabeth is pretty much an outcast to most of the wrestling community, more than likely because he didn't put on great matches, but others with great "workrate" can murder their whole family and still have their careers celebrated. Right, because not being a murderer does not make your past matches better. And being a murderer does not make your past matches worse. TS Eliot was a fascist, but I love his poetry. Doesn't matter, guys with more "workrate" get more slack because they put on 5 * matches, so it's ok for them to slay their families and such. Meanwhile, a guy like Luger, which I'm not saying he should have his career celebrated or anything, just that if he were to do half of what a certain guy from Edmonton did a couple of weeks ago, people on here would be calling for his head.
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Post by CrazySting on Jul 7, 2007 14:58:04 GMT -5
Exactly. How would the Virginia tech families feel if people praised Cho because he was a great writer?
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Post by Just "Dan" is Fine, Thank You on Jul 7, 2007 14:59:12 GMT -5
Exactly. How would the Virginia tech families feel if people praised Cho because he was a great writer? It's not about praising the person, it's about their work. Once you create, your work becomes a separate entity entirely.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Jul 7, 2007 15:01:19 GMT -5
Exactly. How would the Virginia tech families feel if people praised Cho because he was a great writer? It's not about praising the person, it's about their work. Once you create, your work becomes a separate entity entirely. Considering the person did their work, it'd pretty difficult to seperate one from the other, as from here on out anything that person did before the death, means nothing. Maybe to the hardcore marks, but to the general populace their work went out the window when they committed crimes.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
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Post by The OP on Jul 7, 2007 15:01:50 GMT -5
I just wanted to pop in and say that I totally support what Debra is doing and disagree entirely with the people bashing her.
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Post by thestinger on Jul 7, 2007 15:03:08 GMT -5
Once you create, your work becomes a separate entity entirely. Chis Benoit the wrestler isn't Chris Benoit the person? If only that were true. The performer comes from the person. And the actions of the person speak for themself. Hitler was an artist before going into politics. I wouldn't display a piece of his art even if it was beautiful, because to me, he is simply a murderer. That's why I won't watch matches with certain wrestlers ever again. And don't even try to tell me that "Stone Cold Steve Austin" is different from "Steve Williams, husband." Because we all know the Stone Cold character wouldn't beat up women.....
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Post by Fruity Delicious Skittles on Jul 7, 2007 15:03:20 GMT -5
It's not about praising the person, it's about their work. Once you create, your work becomes a separate entity entirely. Considering the person did their work, it'd pretty difficult to seperate one from the other, as from here on out anything that person did before the death, means nothing. Maybe to the hardcore marks, but to the general populace their work went out the window when they committed crimes. Exactly. Benoit relinquished any right he would have for respect of his work when he committed such horrible acts
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Jul 7, 2007 15:05:37 GMT -5
Exactly. How would the Virginia tech families feel if people praised Cho because he was a great writer? It's not about praising the person, it's about their work. Once you create, your work becomes a separate entity entirely. I'm not sure what this has to do with the thread topic, but I do agree with this statement. The main reason is, once you start thinking it's wrong to not appreciate someone's work for reasons related to the person, when does it end? Fact is, a lot of people have done some f***ed up s***. If you can't appreciate the work of someone who has done wrong, you might not be left with much work to appreciate at all.
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Post by Just "Dan" is Fine, Thank You on Jul 7, 2007 15:06:17 GMT -5
I'm not saying Chris Benoit the wrestler is separate from Chris Benoit the murderer.
But Benoit/Angle or Benoit/Jericho do not deteriorate into BAD MATCHES because of a murder that would happen years in the future. You may not want to SEE them out of moral outrage, but that's just plain true.
EDIT: And if you look back, I have NOT defended Austin in this thread. Spousal abuse is f***ed up and I hope Debra never shuts up.
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Post by skillz on Jul 7, 2007 15:07:18 GMT -5
Guys with "workrate" are held to a higher standard on this forum, regardless of their history or actions (see Shawn Michaels, Benoit, etc). If Debra was Warrior's ex, then very few would have a problem with her. Shawn Michaels may have been a prick in the past, but he didn't murder his family so grouping him with Benoit is harsh. I didn't mean to imply Michaels has murdered anyone (or done anything close to that), just that his backstage behavior is largely ignored because of his workrate, while "inferior" wrestlers with backstage issues are being bashed endlessly for it. Just like people couldn't believe Benoit did what he did because of his in-ring ability, and are still celebrating him because of it. Point being: "workrate" is being used to judge the actions of human beings, which is absurd. If Warrior had killed someone, no one would be celebrating his career. If Hogan had beaten his wife, no one would be blasting his wife for airing it out on television. With good reason. But since it's Austin and Benoit, two guys highly respected for their in-ring ability, things seemed to be skewed purposely. I just don't understand it. It's a jaded way of looking at things.
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Hiroshi Hase
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The Good Ol' Days
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Jul 7, 2007 15:10:38 GMT -5
I'm not saying Chris Benoit the wrestler is separate from Chris Benoit the murderer. But Benoit/Angle or Benoit/Jericho do not deteriorate into BAD MATCHES because of a murder that would happen years in the future. You may not want to SEE them out of moral outrage, but that's just plain true. EDIT: And if you look back, I have NOT defended Austin in this thread. Spousal abuse is smurfed up and I hope Debra never shuts up. Not at all, not at all, the matches are going to stay the same, it's just that it's going to be a lot harder for them to be celebrated as one of the guys in those great matches was a murderer. Any glimmer of hope of Benoit being in the HOF was pissed away when he committed that act.
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Post by thestinger on Jul 7, 2007 15:12:05 GMT -5
Nobody here is arguing with you about the man's talent, Dan Nero Regal.
As I've said to anyone who asked my opinion on the subject: Chris Benoit is both the best wrestler who ever peformed and the worst human being to ever wrestle.
His talent almost makes me dislike him more. Earlier in this thread I said I don't respect any man who beats his woman, BUT I have even more contempt for the likes of Lugar and Austin.
If your body is a chemically enhanced killing machine, and you still have to beat up a girl to feel like a man, then you are total filth.
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Mr. Zombie
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Post by Mr. Zombie on Jul 7, 2007 15:12:32 GMT -5
Exactly. How would the Virginia tech families feel if people praised Cho because he was a great writer? It's not about praising the person, it's about their work. Once you create, your work becomes a separate entity entirely. A person's work is generally a part of them, since their work comes directly from them. I believe that the whole, "I can still enjoy his matches" thing thats going qround is a form of denial by many of his fans. Separating him into 2 separate people (wrestler and person) in your mind makes it much, much easier to enjoy his work guilt free, because to a lot of people, that man in the ring is no longer a murderer. Me, I refuse, absolutely refuse, to give that man and his legacy the satisfaction of my enjoyment ever again. Screw his workrate and skill.....he murdered people. Like it or not, his work, his actions outside the ring, his matches, his career, his thoughts, his quotes......its all the same guy. I can't watch a man on TV and enjoy it when I know for a fact that he has the will to murder in his heart and soul. As for Debra, I just wish she wasn't all over Fox News talking about herself. I wish it didn't take something like this for her to come out. She needs to be more active and do things outside of TV show appearances. Yes, she also needs to stop talking about herself, and speak more objectively about the situation and more about her cause is.
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Post by Fruity Delicious Skittles on Jul 7, 2007 15:13:08 GMT -5
It's not about praising the person, it's about their work. Once you create, your work becomes a separate entity entirely. I'm not sure what this has to do with the thread topic, but I do agree with this statement. The main reason is, once you start thinking it's wrong to not appreciate someone's work for reasons related to the person, when does it end? Fact is, a lot of people have done some f***ed up s***. If you can't appreciate the work of someone who has done wrong, you might not be left with much work to appreciate at all. Totally, some people will do some things that are forgivable though. Things that aren't as extreme as what Benoit did. Because Benoit did the worst thing you can do and then some and that's why I can't appreciate or respect his work anymore. That doesn't mean he wasn't good because undeniably he was. But I don't ever want to watch any of his matches again because any time I see or hear of Benoit I don't think about the wrestler he was I think about the murderer he was. And that's HIS fault.
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ACG2x
Unicron
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Post by ACG2x on Jul 7, 2007 15:13:14 GMT -5
Nobody is a winner here. Austin is scum for ever laying his hands on a woman. Unless she's charging at you with a chainsaw or loaded gun saying "I'm going to kill you!" you don't do it ever. For any reason. Atrocious.
That being said, Debra going on news shows to grind her personal axe is not "getting the issue of domestic abuse out in the forefront". It's shameless self-promotion.
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