STMP
Hank Scorpio
Wild and Only 50
Posts: 5,569
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Post by STMP on Sept 7, 2007 19:20:42 GMT -5
Why? Flair wrestled way too long and still took some serious bumps when he was 50+ Hogan's body is smurfed up, yet he too keeps on coming back for a simple nostalgia pop and a very nice pay day. When he doesn't even need the money. I don't respect people who can't hang it up and keep going and going. I have more respect for people like Lance Storm or Ricky Steamboat who left pro-wrestling on good terms and shared their knowledge with younger wrestlers. Flair and Hogan are considered the most influential wrestlers since 1980 by most media and fans regardless of how people felt about their wrestling abilities or styles. I think what the point is that since Hogan and Flair had so much clout that they could call the shots most of the time and not have to bust their tails night end and night out just to keep a job or please the boss so to speak. Although Flair early in his career would wrestle long matches night after night but they were not like some of the more hardcore leaning matches guys like Benoit or Foley would wrestle. But years of hitting the leg drop has messed up Hogan's hip and his back is in bad shape too. Damage is damage and Hogan also worked his ass off before he got into the position where he could wrestle the same matchformula night after night. And in defense of Hogan and Flair. As the top guys they wrestled the longest matches and always had to deliver. There was a lot more pressure on them then on Benoit. Foley is different because people started to expect him to take big bumps in every match. But when he got Socko, that changed too and he did even less moves then Hogan.
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Post by repomanfan on Sept 7, 2007 19:35:32 GMT -5
Flair and Hogan are considered the most influential wrestlers since 1980 by most media and fans regardless of how people felt about their wrestling abilities or styles. I think what the point is that since Hogan and Flair had so much clout that they could call the shots most of the time and not have to bust their tails night end and night out just to keep a job or please the boss so to speak. Although Flair early in his career would wrestle long matches night after night but they were not like some of the more hardcore leaning matches guys like Benoit or Foley would wrestle. But years of hitting the leg drop has messed up Hogan's hip and his back is in bad shape too. Damage is damage and Hogan also worked his ass off before he got into the position where he could wrestle the same matchformula night after night. And in defense of Hogan and Flair. As the top guys they wrestled the longest matches and always had to deliver. There was a lot more pressure on them then on Benoit. Foley is different because people started to expect him to take big bumps in every match. But when he got Socko, that changed too and he did even less moves then Hogan. everybody has to pay dues(in every career). but there's a big difference between paying dues and being a stuntman ala mick foley, or an ass kissing yes man like benoit. wrestling is what it is, and most wrestlers assume that responsibility; but hogan and flair never compromised there bodies and minds like the previously mentioned wrestlers, because they understood what wrestling is really about, and thats not high risk aerial maneuvers , or taking five chair shots a night. benoit and foley were not hogan or flair, so they essentially had to do everything faster and harder but at some point one has to be able to say NO, or risk losing their health and compromising their integrity.
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STMP
Hank Scorpio
Wild and Only 50
Posts: 5,569
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Post by STMP on Sept 7, 2007 20:00:25 GMT -5
But years of hitting the leg drop has messed up Hogan's hip and his back is in bad shape too. Damage is damage and Hogan also worked his ass off before he got into the position where he could wrestle the same matchformula night after night. And in defense of Hogan and Flair. As the top guys they wrestled the longest matches and always had to deliver. There was a lot more pressure on them then on Benoit. Foley is different because people started to expect him to take big bumps in every match. But when he got Socko, that changed too and he did even less moves then Hogan. everybody has to pay dues(in every career). but there's a big difference between paying dues and being a stuntman ala mick foley, or an ass kissing yes man like benoit. wrestling is what it is, and most wrestlers assume that responsibility; but hogan and flair never compromised there bodies and minds like the previously mentioned wrestlers, because they understood what wrestling is really about, and thats not high risk aerial maneuvers , or taking five chair shots a night. benoit and foley were not hogan or flair, so they essentially had to do everything faster and harder but at some point one has to be able to say NO, or risk losing their health and compromising their integrity. Benoit a yes man? The man who left WCW when they gave him the belt, because he didn't like the way the company was being run. The man who never got pushed to the top, because he didn't play the backstage political game as well as others did. And you call him an ass kissing yes man? Benoit was a dedicated wrestler, who was addicted to pro-wrestling. In that way he is the same as Hogan who keeps coming back for no good reason or Flair who is a shell of his former self. How is that respectable? How is a 50+ year old man taking a bump from the ladder on free tv, any different from what Foley did in the past. How is that even 'knowing what pro-wrestling is about.' You blame Foley for being a stuntman, but ignore Flair doing the same at almost twice Foley's age. Hogan and Flair are exactely the same as Foley or a Benoit. Just because they were bigger stars doesn't mean they said 'no'. If Flair did say no or if Hogan said no, I doubt they would be mentioned in so many Wrestlecrap inductions. They have done so many things that have hurt their own credibility that you can't possibly believe what you just said. Hogan knows best may not be as real as MTV wants us to believe, but in that show it is obvious Hogan's body is broken down and his match with Shawn was something his body had trouble dealing with. Still he did it. Why? Because he 'knows pro-wrestling'? When you have a f***ed up hip, knees and back and have a match against another man with backproblems, just for a big pay day or a nostalgia pop. How is he not a prostitute? How is that different from Foley taking a couple of chair shots against the head? How is that different from Benoit taking dangerous bumps? How is that different from Kurt Angle coming back too soon from injuries? How is that different from any other wrestler who wrestles injured? The only difference between Hogan and the others is his status. That's all.
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Post by repomanfan on Sept 7, 2007 20:23:53 GMT -5
everybody has to pay dues(in every career). but there's a big difference between paying dues and being a stuntman ala mick foley, or an ass kissing yes man like benoit. wrestling is what it is, and most wrestlers assume that responsibility; but hogan and flair never compromised there bodies and minds like the previously mentioned wrestlers, because they understood what wrestling is really about, and thats not high risk aerial maneuvers , or taking five chair shots a night. benoit and foley were not hogan or flair, so they essentially had to do everything faster and harder but at some point one has to be able to say NO, or risk losing their health and compromising their integrity. Benoit a yes man? The man who left WCW when they gave him the belt, because he didn't like the way the company was being run. The man who never got pushed to the top, because he didn't play the backstage political game as well as others did. And you call him an ass kissing yes man? Benoit was a dedicated wrestler, who was addicted to pro-wrestling. In that way he is the same as Hogan who keeps coming back for no good reason or Flair who is a shell of his former self. How is that respectable? How is a 50+ year old man taking a bump from the ladder on free tv, any different from what Foley did in the past. How is that even 'knowing what pro-wrestling is about.' You blame Foley for being a stuntman, but ignore Flair doing the same at almost twice Foley's age. Hogan and Flair are exactely the same as Foley or a Benoit. Just because they were bigger stars doesn't mean they said 'no'. If Flair did say no or if Hogan said no, I doubt they would be mentioned in so many Wrestlecrap inductions. They have done so many things that have hurt their own credibility that you can't possibly believe what you just said. Hogan knows best may not be as real as MTV wants us to believe, but in that show it is obvious Hogan's body is broken down and his match with Shawn was something his body had trouble dealing with. Still he did it. Why? Because he 'knows pro-wrestling'? When you have a smurfed up hip, knees and back and have a match against another man with backproblems, just for a big pay day or a nostalgia pop. How is he not a prostitute? How is that different from Foley taking a couple of chair shots against the head? How is that different from Benoit taking dangerous bumps? How is that different from Kurt Angle coming back too soon from injuries? How is that different from any other wrestler who wrestles injured? The only difference between Hogan and the others is his status. That's all. the difference is that wrestlers back in the day didnt put there body's on the line like they do know. flair is able to make money and wrestle to this day(even though he should of retired 15 years go because he's making a complete ass out of himself) because he understood wrestling; how to work a crowd without diving head first into a table. like i said before; every wrestler knows what their getting themselves into(its a tough business), thats why one has to look out for themselves more, and wrestle/perform in a way that will have them avoid as much risk as possible. benoit was very devoted to wrestling and because he didn't have the size or personality he had to work 2 or 3 times as hard as the average guy to get to the top, and once he got there, he didnt wanna let that go. i don't blame chris as much as i blame vinny. BTW i tend to think of flair and hogan in the past tense, as i want to forget the horrible last decade they had(and in flairs case even longer than that). im not saying that they didn't do things that they weren't proud of or wrestled with injuries, but they never went into the ring and took chair shot after chair shot to the skull(sorry for reiterating my point but its an important one).
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Post by ChitownKnight on Sept 7, 2007 21:38:16 GMT -5
I heard Mr. Kennedy saying in a interview that he wanted a week long break every 3 months.
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Post by Josh DELUXE on Sept 7, 2007 21:41:31 GMT -5
A lot of people here are focusing on WWE but really shouldn't we also focus on the indies as well? The wrestlers who wrestle in ROH, IWA Mid-South, PWG, CZW, etc. all tend to wrestle a much more dangerous style than WWE. Say what you want about WWE, but they have toned down the bumps over the past 7 years. Meanwhile it seems like every indy company you go to, you see guys taking meaningless head first bumps. I can only imagine the damage AmDrag suffered during his match with Morishima.
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Post by destrucity on Sept 7, 2007 21:52:06 GMT -5
I've read several times here about the need for state athletic commissions. Doesn't anyone remember Dr. Zahorian?
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Post by kingoftheindies on Sept 7, 2007 23:20:57 GMT -5
A lot of people here are focusing on WWE but really shouldn't we also focus on the indies as well? The wrestlers who wrestle in ROH, IWA Mid-South, PWG, CZW, etc. all tend to wrestle a much more dangerous style than WWE. Say what you want about WWE, but they have toned down the bumps over the past 7 years. Meanwhile it seems like every indy company you go to, you see guys taking meaningless head first bumps. I can only imagine the damage AmDrag suffered during his match with Morishima. the only thing I'll say about indy wrestlers is they'll get time to recover before their next booking. Some guys might be constantly traveling, but they're not wrestling every other night.
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Post by Josh DELUXE on Sept 7, 2007 23:24:36 GMT -5
A lot of people here are focusing on WWE but really shouldn't we also focus on the indies as well? The wrestlers who wrestle in ROH, IWA Mid-South, PWG, CZW, etc. all tend to wrestle a much more dangerous style than WWE. Say what you want about WWE, but they have toned down the bumps over the past 7 years. Meanwhile it seems like every indy company you go to, you see guys taking meaningless head first bumps. I can only imagine the damage AmDrag suffered during his match with Morishima. the only thing I'll say about indy wrestlers is they'll get time to recover before their next booking. Some guys might be constantly traveling, but they're not wrestling every other night. Really? Amdrag doesn't appear to be slowing down. Most of the "hardcore" wrestlers are still heating each other over the head with barbed-wire dildos. Delirious didn't take much time off. I'd say indy wrestlers are even more at risk.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 8, 2007 0:02:06 GMT -5
the only thing I'll say about indy wrestlers is they'll get time to recover before their next booking. Some guys might be constantly traveling, but they're not wrestling every other night. Really? Amdrag doesn't appear to be slowing down. Most of the "hardcore" wrestlers are still heating each other over the head with barbed-wire dildos. Delirious didn't take much time off. I'd say indy wrestlers are even more at risk. Barbed-wire dildos?! What the hell company are you watching?! And, no, AmDrag doesn't wrestle NEARLY the schedule that a WWE wrestler does.
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Post by Josh DELUXE on Sept 8, 2007 0:04:56 GMT -5
Really? Amdrag doesn't appear to be slowing down. Most of the "hardcore" wrestlers are still heating each other over the head with barbed-wire dildos. Delirious didn't take much time off. I'd say indy wrestlers are even more at risk. Barbed-wire dildos?! What the hell company are you watching?! And, no, AmDrag doesn't wrestle NEARLY the schedule that a WWE wrestler does. Um...doesn't really matter. Too many headshots is still too many headshots. Indy wrestlers are so pressured into thinking they have to drop themselves on their heads to get a reaction that they are probably killing themselves faster than you would like to think. Not too mention how sleazy wrestling promoters are.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 8, 2007 11:07:36 GMT -5
Barbed-wire dildos?! What the hell company are you watching?! And, no, AmDrag doesn't wrestle NEARLY the schedule that a WWE wrestler does. Um...doesn't really matter. Too many headshots is still too many headshots. Indy wrestlers are so pressured into thinking they have to drop themselves on their heads to get a reaction that they are probably killing themselves faster than you would like to think. Not too mention how sleazy wrestling promoters are. I'm not really sure where you're getting this. If it's just random observations on your part, I can't really take it as evidence. The fact is, extended periods of rest between matches has been shown to be one of the best methods to ensure wrestlers' all-around health. Yes, there are some promotions out there where you've got bloodthirsty fans and sleazy promoters, but a lot of what goes down in a ring comes down to the wrestlers' choices. If they don't want to take serious head bumps, there are plenty of ways to avoid them and still put on an excellent match. EDIT: I'll also add that a large number of younger workers these days seem to be hearkening back to the times when wrestlers trained more to look and feel like athletes, and less like bodybuilders (not that all do, obviously, but many, many of the major indy names you see these days). Having that sort of health is also conducive to avoiding certain injuries and long-lasting potential ill effects.
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Post by nublet on Sept 8, 2007 13:09:42 GMT -5
the difference is that wrestlers back in the day didnt put there body's on the line like they do know. flair is able to make money and wrestle to this day(even though he should of retired 15 years go because he's making a complete ass out of himself) because he understood wrestling; how to work a crowd without diving head first into a table. like i said before; every wrestler knows what their getting themselves into(its a tough business), thats why one has to look out for themselves more, and wrestle/perform in a way that will have them avoid as much risk as possible. benoit was very devoted to wrestling and because he didn't have the size or personality he had to work 2 or 3 times as hard as the average guy to get to the top, and once he got there, he didnt wanna let that go. i don't blame chris as much as i blame vinny. BTW i tend to think of flair and hogan in the past tense, as i want to forget the horrible last decade they had(and in flairs case even longer than that). im not saying that they didn't do things that they weren't proud of or wrestled with injuries, but they never went into the ring and took chair shot after chair shot to the skull(sorry for reiterating my point but its an important one). Wrestlers in the day doesn't put their bodies like Benoit would because as time progresses, so do style of wrestling. If you presented 1950's style of wrestling to the 80's audience, nobody would watch, same reaction as you would if you presented 80's style of wrestling to today. Benoit and Foley had to do what they had to do to keep the wrestling business from stagnating. The purpose of pro-wrestling is to entertain, and if rougher style of wrestling is what the audience enjoys, then that's what dedicated[/u[ wrestlers would present.
Benoit was very devoted to wrestling, yes he was. He was so devoted to wrestling, that when he declined an offer to be at the top position in an international wrestling organisation, simply because he felt he was restricted as a wrestler. Hell he hasn't held a top position in any of the brands for quite sometime.
Honest to god, in my opinion if Hogan and Flair hadn't been presented and played as legends they wouldn't even be as over as they do with the fans today.
And I disagree whole heartedly with "they never went into the ring and took chair shot after chair shot to the skull", Flair has a documented back problem, yet in his 50's he's still taking back bumps week after week. Hogan had to have hip surgeries, back injuries, yet he kept coming back into the ring even though he doesn't need to. All you have to do is switch skulls with your back, or legs. A repeat of shots to one body part is just as unnecessary, even more so when you don't need to do it in the first place.
Speaking of which, compare Benoit and Hogan. Both realise that their bodies can only take so much punishments. Both have had injuries requiring surgeries. But Benoit (supposedly) doesn't care about how much money he makes, and he doesn't concern himself with his position in a pay-per-view. Hogan bitches and whines when he's offered less that what I would assume what Benoit makes a year, for one match. Not in the main event? No way brother!
So who's the real whore? Someone who does it because he loves wrestling, or someone who cares mostly for money, position, and fame which he clings to like a shield? And don't bother bringing up names other "legends", chances are they either are as equally big a whore, or does a short-lived program, which is not what we're discussing about.
I fail to see how someone with "a brain resembling an 85 year old man with alzheimer's" wouldn't get lost in the ring and have all the dementia and paranoia go unnoticed. \
It's been proven that routine deeply embedded habbits can stay with you even if you're suffering from Alzheimer's. It doesn't always happen, and may not even be "small" details like names, but it happens. And I suppose having wrestled for 20 years, being in the ring IS Benoit's foremost habit. It wouldn't surprise me if he could handle himself in the ring, even if he actually had Alzheimer's.
My 2 sen:
WWE is in deep trouble already, however I foresee that if another wrestler of theirs drops anytime soon due to wear and tear, the whole wrestling industry could die.
Three words: tort of negligence. A almost sturdy case can be brought against the WWE right now.
Like it or not, I believe they really do have to cut down on the schedule if they do not want to deepen the hole they are already in.
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Post by jmac950 on Sept 8, 2007 13:31:06 GMT -5
We' already kicked this dead horse enough. A few suggestions that have been repeated already:
A) They can reduce the house shows they have during the week. With DVD sales a big cash cow, the WWE can cut costs with house shows.
B) Merge the brands. Merging the brands with the roster they have will do many things. First, not everyone will get a change to perform on each show. Second, it'll improve the product, making each belt worth a damn. The quality of wrestling SHOULD go up, as there will be competition for tv spots. The guys not on tv, can consist of the majority of the house show cards.
C) Force regular checkups for wrestlers with more than one concussion on a bi-annual basis. If they fail fighting standards, they take time off with downside money.
D) Regualr pshychological and physical checkups for wrestlers over the age of 33. Wrestling, like other sports, have guys' body deteriorate in their 30's. So, get them checked up regulairly to make sure they can actually do it. If they can't. . .
E) Start a life after wrestling program. Seriously, make it mandatory for wrestlers to go. Test them. If they fail, they can't go on tv and wrestle. Make these guys realize that there is life after wrestling, and they don't have to literally kill themselves forever. Maybe this will force more guys to retire in their mid 30's, instead of wrestling well into their 40's, a shell of their formal selves, and broke/broken down.
F) Have life as a superstar program. Basically, it would be a program that continues to hamper home drugs are bad, groupies aren't good, and what you put in your body can kill you. Hammer home that by taking painkillers, etc, you will be caught, and suspended. So it isn't worth it. EDIT: If they do get caught with illegal prescriptions, their names should be released to the public. Moreover, I think the government should intervene and strip the doctors of their liscence. How many wrestlers have died of overdoses because some unethical doctor gave them more pills than they should have? Doctors who pimp out these drugs are just as guilty. Sadly, that won't ever happen because of the US government, and their relationship with Pharmaceutical companies. That's another topic for another thread.
G) Go back to making wrestlers pay their dues. Why have someone on the card who was hired for their physique, or their name in another sport. Having those guys on the card increases the percentage of injury for everyone. Make them earn their safety stripes before pushing them. WWE would save money because they won't invest in wrestlers who will quit because they do not understand the wrestling culture.
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bwo4life
Trap-Jaw
Those were the days.
Posts: 301
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Post by bwo4life on Sept 8, 2007 13:57:03 GMT -5
This news kind of was a relief to me, as I am sure it was to many of us, in the sense that Beniot wasn't just some roided freak snapping, but instead a man with a horrible medical issue.
I think the wrestling world needs to look at this as a whole. I personally feel Mike Awsome's death can be contributed to this as well. I mean the man wrestled in FMW for over 6 years. The style there was intense and stiff. Who knows what kind of condition his brain was in.
As some mentioned the indys are more at risk, but can you imagine the guys in Japan who work the strong style? Guys like Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi and the whole old All Japan locker room were crazy stiff back in the 90s. I think damage to the brain for these guys is highly likely.
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Post by Josh DELUXE on Sept 8, 2007 14:04:39 GMT -5
This news kind of was a relief to me, as I am sure it was to many of us, in the sense that Beniot wasn't just some roided freak snapping, but instead a man with a horrible medical issue. I understand what you mean so don't think I'm directing this at you but I fear that a bunch of people are going to be like "OMG ITS NOT BENOITS FAULT! RIP BENOIT GREATEST EVA!!" Fact is, the dude had horrible medical issues that many other wrestlers probably already experience. That doesn't excuse him from his actions. What he did made him a horrible human being no matter what the excuse is.
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Post by cpbuff22 on Sept 8, 2007 14:34:09 GMT -5
All I gotta say is Stone Cold Steve Austin.... it should have come to a head when Austin almost missed WrestleMania because he was over using energy drinks and other stimulants. I mean this is a guy who had knee surgeries & neck fusion multiple times and yet no one is watching to see how his medical condition is on a night to night basis? Its one thing to follow around some one like Cody Rhodes, being he is new in the business. But some of these guys with constant injuries and those up there in age such as Triple H, HBK, Undertaker, & Flair should be examined on at least a weekly basis to prevent any more injuries from occurring. This could have prevented the death of Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit.
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Post by Josh DELUXE on Sept 8, 2007 14:36:09 GMT -5
All I gotta say is Stone Cold Steve Austin.... it should have come to a head when Austin almost missed WrestleMania because he was over using energy drinks and other stimulants. I mean this is a guy who had knee surgeries & neck fusion multiple times and yet no one is watching to see how his medical condition is on a night to night basis? Not to mention some of those wifebeating stories Debra tells us. Austin really should have been put in an old folks home quite some time ago.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2007 19:02:09 GMT -5
I am still saddened whenever I hear news about Benoit. However, I'm glad that they found out that information because now I think real steps can be taken in the right direction for wrestling as a whole. Basically everything jmac950 said.
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