NOwave
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,735
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Post by NOwave on Dec 26, 2007 12:01:08 GMT -5
I read Bret Hart's new autobiography, and I am still confused. Immediately after the event, and after seeing "Wrestling with Shadows" I tended to take Bret's side of the story, and condemn Vince for his actions.
After reading Shawn Micheals' and Ric Flairs' autobiographies a few years later, I revised my thinking, and began to believe Bret deserved most if not all of what he got. I realized I didn't understand pro wrestling as well as I thought I did. Vince's actions made more sense to me after that.
Now after reading the most complete version yet of Bret's side of the story in his autobiography, I am undecided again. Shawn truly acted despicably at times in the months leading up to Montreal, and Vince clearly had allowed Shawn and Triple H to assume more influence over the product than the other wrestlers, for reasons I don't understand.
So who was really at fault? Who was right and who was wrong?
The best answer will come when Vince someday writes his autobiography. Till then, I'm interested in what posters here think.
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Post by Lionheart on Dec 26, 2007 12:24:15 GMT -5
It's pointless to let your opinion be swayed by what any of those guys say in their books or anywhere else because you have no way of being sure any of them are telling the truth about any of it.
Edit: Could I have said "any" any more in that sentence?
All of them can and probably will say whatever they like to make themselves come off looking better in the whole incident. When Vince writes his autobiography, it'll be no different.
Personally, I'm somewhat bewildered and a tad annoyed that people still haven't gotten tired of talking about this after ten years.
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Post by bitteroldman on Dec 26, 2007 12:28:15 GMT -5
You can't take anything written by a wrestler at face value, it's all worked to a certain degree. Either the whole screwjob was a work and Bret was in on it and continues to work it to this very day, or Bret was at fault. His father was a promoter for years so Bret knew that the strap had to come off him before he left for WCW. You may argue that Bret gave his word that he would surrender the belt, etc before leaving but my response to that is can you really take anything a wrestler says at face value? Vince had no choice but to "screw" Bret once it became apparent that he would not "do the job". Vince had to make absolutely certain that the title belt didn't end up as a prop on Nitro. Amazing how a dead horse can still take a beating after all these years
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Post by blackielawless on Dec 26, 2007 12:30:43 GMT -5
Oh no, not again...
#1. Bret had creative control over his characters final days, so Vince was in the wrong.
#2. Bret should have "done the job" and respected Vince's wishes, and he was leaving anyways, so Bret was in the wrong.
#3. There will never be a clear "who was right or wrong" in this matter.
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Kyle
Team Rocket
It's Still Real To Me!
Posts: 943
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Post by Kyle on Dec 26, 2007 12:31:13 GMT -5
Nobody was right. End of story.
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Post by Back to being Cenanuff on Dec 26, 2007 12:36:41 GMT -5
Bret should have realized that Vince was a cornered, wounded animal at that point in time. And what do we know about wounded animals when you corner them? They're capable of anything. Bret was leaving, and he had something that Vince wanted, and was exercising what he thought was reasonable creative control. Vince didn't see it that way, and made a business decision based on the fact that Bret's contract ended that night, and that was get the belt off the guy that's leaving, because every promise they give you isn't worth the skin you trade on the handshake when their contract is up. I still say the whole thing could have been avoided if they would have signed a one-day contract extension with severe penalties to both Bret and WCW if it were violated. Bret should have known better, but he chose to believe that Vince was going to be honorable about it, and let a verbal agreement be their bond.
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Post by Near Fantastica on Dec 26, 2007 12:42:19 GMT -5
I don't have an opinion on this, and neither do any of us on here. None of us work for the company, or worked for the company, so we'll never know exactly what happened. It's none of our business either really.
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Post by casualsmark on Dec 26, 2007 12:46:15 GMT -5
Vince was burned before by his wrestlers e.g. Women's title being thrown in the trash on Nitro, losing Nash, Hall, Hogan, Savage, his company was losing the ratings war and was in a steady decline, and then was suddenly thrust into a position where the WWF title belt could potentially be downplayed or "desecrated" by Bischoff. It was not about Bret, not about Shawn, not about Hebner, not even the wrestling business, they were all replaceable in this case. It was a pure financial decision and Vince doing what he felt he needed to do to keep his company alive.
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Post by blackielawless on Dec 26, 2007 12:47:22 GMT -5
Well, you have to remember that if WCW wanted to, they could have just bought a fake WWE championship belt off of WWE's website and had Bret Hart walk onto Nitro with it, no one would have been the wiser. So I think the whole Bret trashing the WWE belt on Nitro is a mute point honestly.
Also, I simply believe deep down after following Bret's career for so long that he wouldn't have done that.
I do agree however, that since he was leaving the company (regardless of the circumstances), that he should have done the job to Michaels and put over the future head guy of the WWE.
BUT, Bret did have that final days on contract creative control so... it goes on and on and on...
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Post by molson5 on Dec 26, 2007 12:59:14 GMT -5
I don't think anyone was really "wrong" - wasn't this incident a huge success for all involved?
The only exception is possibly Bret (assuming he wasn't in on it). But still, Bret got to save face, enhance his image as a Canadian hero (at least in his own mind), and got to leave for a lucrative WCW deal without having to be the bad guy that "sold out".
I think the assumption that Montreal was a bad thing is incorrect.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Dec 26, 2007 13:00:19 GMT -5
Let's not discuss Montreal because it always ends up in an argument.
Plus it's beating a dead horse now
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2007 13:08:54 GMT -5
I read Bret Hart's new autobiography, and I am still confused. Immediately after the event, and after seeing "Wrestling with Shadows" I tended to take Bret's side of the story, and condemn Vince for his actions. After reading Shawn Micheals' and Ric Flairs' autobiographies a few years later, I revised my thinking, and began to believe Bret deserved most if not all of what he got. I realized I didn't understand pro wrestling as well as I thought I did. Vince's actions made more sense to me after that. Now after reading the most complete version yet of Bret's side of the story in his autobiography, I am undecided again. Shawn truly acted despicably at times in the months leading up to Montreal, and Vince clearly had allowed Shawn and Triple H to assume more influence over the product than the other wrestlers, for reasons I don't understand. So who was really at fault? Who was right and who was wrong? The best answer will come when Vince someday writes his autobiography. Till then, I'm interested in what posters here think. I don't see anyone as being in the wrong. It wasn't wrong for Vince to plan out Hart losing the title without his knowledge, he felt that it needed to be done. He had nothing to gain and everything to lose from the "risk" of Hart doing something ugly with the belt elsewhere. Hart probably would have kept his word and dropped the belt soon after, but maybe he wouldn't...there was no way to know and no benefit to risking it. Nor is it wrong for Hart to feel angry about what happened, I would be too. Sometimes these things happen in life, and they can't be helped.
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azz0r
Dennis Stamp
Ex 4 month ruling Wrestlecrap PPV Prediction Champion
Posts: 3,696
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Post by azz0r on Dec 26, 2007 13:23:13 GMT -5
Who cares, I'm fed up of Bret whining about it and people treating it like a big deal. When you look at the basic facts;
- Bret chose WCW and therefore should have dropped the title - Shawn had to win that match - Vince owned the company and the belt, therefore its his right todo what he wants with it
So really, who cares who's right? ...both men have made alot of money and fame over one nights actions.
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Post by blackielawless on Dec 26, 2007 13:31:54 GMT -5
Who cares, I'm fed up of Bret whining about it and people treating it like a big deal. When you look at the basic facts; - Bret chose WCW and therefore should have dropped the title Actually it was Vince who wanted out of Bret's 20 year contract. Bret asked Vince "what do I have to do to stay with WWE?" and Vince didn't follow up. He kept claiming he couldn't pay him. Bret has said repeatedly he never wanted to leave WWE.
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azz0r
Dennis Stamp
Ex 4 month ruling Wrestlecrap PPV Prediction Champion
Posts: 3,696
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Post by azz0r on Dec 26, 2007 13:36:19 GMT -5
What I got from the Bret story DVD is...
1) Vince wants out of his 20 year contract 2) They agree to split on it and Bret stays on a year to year basis 3) Bret wants out a later date 4) Vince secretly helps Bret get a better deal with WCW
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by blackielawless on Dec 26, 2007 13:58:39 GMT -5
What I got from the Bret story DVD is... 1) Vince wants out of his 20 year contract 2) They agree to split on it and Bret stays on a year to year basis 3) Bret wants out a later date 4) Vince secretly helps Bret get a better deal with WCW Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not gonna say you are wrong as there are many sources of info on this subject so that is why we may have different understandings of it. Here is how I understand it based on the "Wrestling with Shadows" special. 1. Vince regrets having given Bret the 20 year deal. 2. Vince informs Bret that the WWE is in financial peril and encourages Bret to seek employment with WCW. 4. After Bret meets with WCW, Vince tells Bret they will honor his contract if he decides to stay. 3. Afterwards Bret and Vince meet in regards to future storylines involving Bret and it was all crap. Some say Vince did this on purpose to get Bret to take WCW's offer. 4. Hart gives notice and signs with WCW. Also, there is a part in the A&E special where Hart says to Vince over the phone "What will it take for me to stay with the WWE?" leading one to believe Bret would have taken a lower pay. Vince simply said he couldn't pay him anymore. Closing the door on Bret. Backstage before SS97, you can clearly see Bret and his then wife and other wrestlers were all very sad he was leaving. The whole thing seemed "forced" to me. btw: The whole Wrestling with Shadows special can be found on you tube.
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NOwave
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,735
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Post by NOwave on Dec 26, 2007 15:48:45 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the opinions.
A few responses-
This is probably the most important event in the last 20 years of prowrestling, at least since Vince went national with the WWF, and I think we don't talk about it enough. Not only is it fascinating, it seems to be the key to understanding the whole business. The business is a complete performance, dedicated only to making a profit, just like the movies, Broadway, or any other form of entertainment. They (the business) gave the public what they wanted in terms of raunch, sleaze and stunts, just like any other entertainment business that follows its audience. Wrestlers are performers following a script, given to them by the director-in the case of the WWF, Vince McMahon. Bret still doesn't fully grasp that. He still believes that bad people in the business somehow caused or at least allowed this to happen.
So, what responsibility does a director(Vince) have to the perfromers, (wrestlers) and what responsibility does he have to the paying customers(us)? Was Bret naive enough to believe the business owed him something? Pro wrestling is the descendant of the traveling carny and has always been populated by unsavory characters. They don't owe anybody anything. If you don't understand that about the business, you are taking a risk by getting involved with them.
Second, I can't believe at this point that Bret was a part of it, and that it is a continuing work. I suspected Bret was in on it at one time, but he has no reason to deny it now. I can't believe he would have continued to do so after Owen died.
Also, I don't think Bret "benefited" from it. I know he was well paid by WCW, but I don't think Bret feels that outweighs the loss of honor and pride he had in the business. I think Bret has been a broken man emotionally ever since.
I agree with others here that Vince and Shawn benfited from it tremendously. You could argue that this event put Vince over the top in the Monday night wars because it exposed the "evil" Mr. McMahon character to an audience that wanted to see it, further blurring the line between reality and fiction.
The only conclusion I've come to is that Bret is probably should have gotten out of the business before he did. Too bad his acting career didn't take off.
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Jack
Team Rocket
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Post by Jack on Dec 26, 2007 15:52:08 GMT -5
I have no idea so I'll just blame a prostitute.
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Mac
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Mac on Dec 26, 2007 15:56:15 GMT -5
I think Vince did Bret a huge favor by having him lose in that manner. For starters it wasn't a legit loss. Yeahthe title changes hands but everyone knows how it went down. I dont think Bret loses any heat heading out the door. Plus he almost got handed a storyline on his way out the door. WCW has no idea what to do with it and instead had it result in the worst match in their history.
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Jack
Team Rocket
Posts: 903
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Post by Jack on Dec 26, 2007 15:58:40 GMT -5
Bret Hart and HBK clearly did not get on, both were clearly on a very high salary, Vince clearly felt that Shawn was the horse to back and having two enormous egos at each other's throats constantly must have been ripping the moral of the locker room apart, even if Vince probably could afford to pay Vince what he said he could or even if Bret decided to take a pay cut, Vince more than likely would have got rid of him anyway.
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