Montreal Screwjob-10 years later-Who was right, wr

[Back to being Cenanuff]

blackielawless said:

Well, you have to remember that if WCW wanted to, they could have just bought a fake WWE championship belt off of WWE's website and had Bret Hart walk onto Nitro with it, no one would have been the wiser. So I think the whole Bret trashing the WWE belt on Nitro is a mute point honestly.

Also, I simply believe deep down after following Bret's career for so long that he wouldn't have done that.

I do agree however, that since he was leaving the company (regardless of the circumstances), that he should have done the job to Michaels and put over the future head guy of the WWE.

BUT, Bret did have that final days on contract creative control so... it goes on and on and on...

If there's one thing I want you to take away from this discussion, it's this: Bret didn't have creative control. He had "reasonable creative control." There's a huge difference. It essentially means that neither side could force the other to do something they didn't want to do, as long as it was reasonable to object. That brings ot the question of what is "reasonable"? In this case, was it reasonable from a business perspective to allow your top star the opportunity to put you further behind the competition by letting him hold on to the title after his contract was up, and you no longer had any control over his actions? Of course not. Was it reasonable for Bret to use the excuse of "I don't want to lose in front of my home town," to hold on to the title until after his contract was up? Of course not. In the end, from a business standpoint, it was Bret who was being unreasonable, not Vince.

[Bob Schlapowitz]

This again?

Who was right? Who was wrong? Who really gives a f*** 10 years later?

[NOwave]

One of Bret's problems was that he truly seemed (and seems still) to believe that losing the title in Canada would somehow damage his "Hitman" character. I have trouble believing that, unless all of Canada is as neurotic as Bret suggests he is himself.

Ric Flair pointed out the ridiculousness of that comment in his book by saying it would the same as if he refused to lose a title match in the Carolinas.

[Jam]

If you forget about the people involved, I see the whole situation now as nothing more than a business decision. Was it good for business should be the question.

[Ben Wyatt]

bobschlapowitz said:

This again?

Who was right? Who was wrong? Who really gives a smurf 10 years later?

What he said

[Lionheart]

and I think we don't talk about it enough. Not only is it fascinating, it seems to be the key to understanding the whole business.

Good grief.

That's all I have to say.

[Deleted]

This tread is borken.

[rubber johnny]

it was vince's fault, no question about it

[Joekishi]

eh i like how everything turned out in the end.

bret's selfishness

[Citizen Snips Has Left]

I'm going to start pulling a Kaufman and just insert huge chunks of "The Great Gatsby" into any threads about Montreal I see....

In the words of Feist, LET IT DIE.

[Bobby Womack]

brett was unprofessional, and needs to get over it, yeah ok in interviews its always the interviewer that brings it up but its stupid that he put over vince at the HOF but still holds a grudge against shawn when he was doing nothing but following vinces orders, the bitterness really seems like its eating him up inside when shawn doesnt appear to care less about it

but anyway who cares?

[Deleted]

dothebird said:

I'm going to start pulling a Kaufman and just insert huge chunks of "The Great Gatsby" into any threads about Montreal I see....

In the words of Feist, LET IT DIE.

Now, that's a great idea.

[Bob Schlapowitz]

devolution said:

dothebird said:

I'm going to start pulling a Kaufman and just insert huge chunks of "The Great Gatsby" into any threads about Montreal I see....

In the words of Feist, LET IT DIE.

Now, that's a great idea.

I have a better idea. Any time I see a thread on Montreal, I'm just going to post random pictures of hot chicks in it.

[Captain Wonderful]

To quote a man much better than myself, I'll now present a list of things I care as little about as the Montreal Screwjob:

Low-carb diets, Michael Moore, the Republican National Convention, Kabbalah and all Kabbalah-related products, hi-def TV, the Bush daughters, wireless hotspots, The O. C., the U.N., recycling, getting Punk'd, Danny Gans; the Latin Grammys, the real Grammys, Jeff that Wiggle who sleeps too darn much, the Yankees' payroll, the red states, the blue states, every hybrid car, every talk show host, everything on the planet, everything in the solar system, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything that exists, past, present and future in all discovered and undiscovered dimensions.

OH...and Hugh Jackman.

[TRUTH TELLER]

rs2t said:

brett was unprofessional, and needs to get over it, yeah ok in interviews its always the interviewer that brings it up but its stupid that he put over vince at the HOF but still holds a grudge against shawn when he was doing nothing but following vinces orders

I think a lot of people can understand and relate to Vince's mindset going into Survivor Series, but to suggest that HBK in any way went along with it out of some deep seeded company loyalty is absurd, imo. He hated Bret. This has never been argued. And if you've seen Wrestling With shadows you actually hear HBK audibly yell "I had no f***ing idea, Bret!" when Bret confronts him backstage (Bret had a recorder on him). Bret's forgiveness of Vince and continued hate of HBK stems from the fact that I think on some level he understands Vince's motives, while he knows HBK was a cowardly backstabber and too pussy to ever man up about his part in it, instead of lying about it for so many years when it was so obviously done maliciously.

For the record, I'm a fan of HBK and do think he's genuinely changed. But I do think he needs to apologize to Bret for being a liar and a scumbag who broke Bret's trust in the ring. I think if HBk did that, he could look in the mirror and know that if Bret still had any resentment towards him it'd be his own problem as he'd no longer have anything to even remotely feel guilty about.

[Bob Schlapowitz]

survivalism said:

To quote a man much better than myself, I'll now present a list of things I care as little about as the Montreal Screwjob:

Low-carb diets, Michael Moore, the Republican National Convention, Kabbalah and all Kabbalah-related products, hi-def TV, the Bush daughters, wireless hotspots, The O. C., the U.N., recycling, getting Punk'd, Danny Gans; the Latin Grammys, the real Grammys, Jeff that Wiggle who sleeps too darn much, the Yankees' payroll, the red states, the blue states, every hybrid car, every talk show host, everything on the planet, everything in the solar system, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything that exists, past, present and future in all discovered and undiscovered dimensions.

OH...and Hugh Jackman.

Don't forget about the Crab Nebula.

Oh, and to make good on my earlier promise.

[Bobby Womack]

mikebowski said:

rs2t said:

brett was unprofessional, and needs to get over it, yeah ok in interviews its always the interviewer that brings it up but its stupid that he put over vince at the HOF but still holds a grudge against shawn when he was doing nothing but following vinces orders

I think a lot of people can understand and relate to Vince's mindset going into Survivor Series, but to suggest that HBK in any way went along with it out of some deep seeded company loyalty is absurd, imo. He hated Bret. This has never been argued. And if you've seen Wrestling With shadows you actually hear HBK audibly yell "I had no smurfing idea, Bret!" when Bret confronts him backstage (Bret had a recorder on him). Bret's forgiveness of Vince and continued hate of HBK stems from the fact that I think on some level he understands Vince's motives, while he knows HBK was a cowardly backstabber and too pussy to ever man up about his part in it, instead of lying about it for so many years when it was so obviously done maliciously.

For the record, I'm a fan of HBK and do think he's genuinely changed. But I do think he needs to apologize to Bret for being a liar and a scumbag who broke Bret's trust in the ring. I think if HBk did that, he could look in the mirror and know that if Bret still had any resentment towards him it'd be his own problem as he'd no longer have anything to even remotely feel guilty about.

i have seen that but ive also seen vince say that he told shawn and hhh to deny all knowledge of it to everyone, and i think the choice is obvious when chosing between keeping your word to a guy you dont give a f*** about and risk getting punished/burried, or keeping a (somewhat) good relationship with your boss and ensuring your career continues smoothly

[Shazam]

First off, I don't think this merits a "This again?" type of reaction. This was an absolutely HUGE moment in the history of wrestling, an event that really wasn't seen before in the magnitude it was seen, and so much mystery and intrigue surrounded it at the time, and even to this day, I fault no one for looking back on it and analyzing what they think happened. It's a part of history, and if you're a wrestling fan, wrestling history is important. This was a part of wrestling history, good, bad, or indifferent, and to discuss it isn't a terrible thing...

With that said, Bret Hart went on record on numerous occassions about being a traditionalist. He knew damn well what was expected of a person who was holding a championship the night before he's bound to go to the "other guys". Everyone before him honored that, sans Medusa, and she got shown what life was like afterwards. (Really, have you heard from her?)

I don't care what kind of creative control Bret had over his character. Saying "I'd like to keep the belt in my hometown on my last PPV wrestling" is completely retarded. It's like saying I'm the CEO of a company so I get to keep all the profits for myself. Yes, I have control over the money, but it sure as heck don't mean I get to keep it. Vince was 95% right in what he did. The 5% wrong is in reference to the fact he told Bret to his face that he going to honor Bret's request, then doubled back on him. That's a little shady in any regard.

Vince just should have told him flat out, "Hey, this is what's going on. We need you to drop it tonight. Because I need to ensure my champion is a contracted WWF wrestler. I can't allow the belt to be around the waist of somebody who isn't contracted. I know that sucks for your character, but you'll rebound no problem in WCW. Hell, look at what we did to Hogan on his way out. We had Yokozuna squash him back to the stone ages, and he's doing just fine. Nobody will remember this with any great fondness if you lose in Canada to Shawn. Go out there, put out a good match for the folks that paid the money to see you wrestle in a WWF ring for the last time, and if things don't work out in WCW, you'll always have a home here."

Of course, if that had happened, we likely wouldn't have the "Mr. McMahon" character, and consequently, Stone Cold's push wouldn't have been nearly as prolific, which, in turn, would have made his rival, The Rock, far less relevant at the same time. We might not even HAVE a WWF/WWE to talk about these days, and we'd be suffering through the hell that was the early 2000's WCW every week even today. The overused analogy of the Butterfly Effect really does play out in this instance. There's no telling what would have happened if this had been done "right", and that's what makes the topic so interesting, because that one night, with that one wrestler, and one promoter, shaped the industry as we know it today.

So if you don't want to listen to it, fine, don't. Free country. But chastising those who still find it fascinating ten years later as a topic of discussion on a BOARD THAT DISCUSSES WRESTLING is quite silly in basic verbage.

[Dick Foley]

I was right. It was a work.

[Deleted]

To me the "Reasonable creative control" argument is week.

If Vince told Bret that he had to go into the middle of the ring and have sex with a goat. Then most would say that would be unreasonable.

But losing a match is par for the course in wrestling.