Would Bret have screwed Vince the next night

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Definately not.

I can see part of Bret's point of not wanting to drop it to Shawn in Canada. After what Shawn did to the Canadian flag (picking his nose with it, humping it in the middle of the ring) for Bret to walk out as a huge Canadian babyface and lose and just be gone......pretty much sucks. He can't get the revenge.

[The Ichi]

gimmieabreakbrain said:

Instead we get 10 years of crying.

...by WWE/HBK marks.

[Deleted]

Here's how I picture the post-Survivor Series promo with Bret Hart, if you take the Wade Keller proposal into consideration:

(November 9 1997, Ottawa Canada) Bret comes out to a loud supportive ovation with the title belt around his shoulder. He takes the microphone.
"I want to thank all my fans in Canada, without whom I would not be here tonight. I want to thank the World Wrestling Federation for allowing me to come out here and say my piece. You know, there's been a lot of talk about Bret Hart...leaving the WWF. (Fans boo.) People have said that Survivor Series was my last match here. Well, in a way, they were right. Let me get you up to speed on what's been happening with me. And we can go back over the past year when I resigned my contract for a 20-year lifetime deal. I was going to be the main guy. Business may have hit a snag, but they put their faith in me to bring things back to where they used to be. My matches with Steve Austin was bringing in amazing revenue for this company. I won my fifth WWF title against the Undertaker in what many have called a huge match. The Hart Foundation has revived what it's like to be a true force in wrestling, and I'm proud of what I did.
So, a couple of weeks ago, I went to Vince McMahon, the owner of the World Wrestling Federation, and I cut to the chase. "Vince, business seems to be going well. But, it seems that you're neglecting to use me at the top of the card, where the champion belongs, and instead...you put Shawn Michaels (fans boo, some girls scream) in the main events. Now, I don't want to sound like I'm ungrateful, because you had the integrity to put the belt on me five times. And you do have the business sense to put a mid-card guy like the Patriot against me, but I'm not a miracle worker. I've been making stars like Steve Austin and Yokozuna like you've asked. But, why should a guy like Shawn Michaels; who comes out here week after week, showing his butt crack for a cheap laugh, running down my family - including my 80-year old father, who's done nothing to bother him except be my dad - and runs when he's asked to do any sort of job to anybody, get any sort of preferential treatment? I'll be the first to admit that Shawn versus the Undertaker was a very good main event caliber match at Ground Zero. But, he's not your champion, I am. It seems that being the champion of the World Wrestling Federation isn't any more important than being a sort of sex symbol.
"Vince looks me with sincerity and says, 'Bret, business is not building like I had expected it to when I signed you. I'm in financial peril. The WCW is breathing down my neck, taking all my stars and doing phenomenal business by bait-and-switch tactics. Ted Turner is hell-bent on putting me out of the business three generations of my family was involved in. I'm only trying to keep up with them, by giving the fans a little more adult-type of feel. I'm trying to draw a certain demographic with young adult males, the ones who have expendable income to spend on our product. So, I give them what they want. They want a little attitude, a little flash, a little more sizzle. They kids that grew up with us aren't there anymore.'
"So, after that, he all-but-tells me that my kind of character was outdated. He takes my role as the number one good guy and asks me to switch it with Stone Cold Steve Austin. Of course, I was offended, but figured I can really do good business with Steve. I former a group called the Hart Foundation with my family, and was getting positive reviews all over the world. Then, he takes my number one bad guy role, after I had already ran down and burned a bridge with any fan of the United States to the point there was no turning back...and gives it, to Shawn.
"I asked Vince, 'Where can I go from here?' Vince asked for my thoughts and I thought, 'He squashed me.' He has me in a catch-22. There really isn't anywhere I can go from here. I'm stuck on the bad guy side, playing second fiddle to a guy who flaunts my family, turns up the raunchiness of this program to the point that I won't even let the kids watch it.
"Vince tells me, 'WCW made you a tremendous offer. If it is at all possible, I would like you to reconsider what they have and ask them if it is still available. I hate to have Bret Hart go to my competition, but I'm not going to hold you here against your will if you're uncomfortable about the direction of the WWF.'
"So, he did respect me. He just didn't think I was part of the new face of Raw. And WCW gave me a tremendous offer. I sized up the situation and heard what they had to say about what was in the works for me; and I liked what I heard. 'Bret,' they said, 'You'll love it here. Think of all the great things we can do with your character. You won't have to work as hard. You'll have carte blanche over your character and who you wrestle. It's family friendly. And, you'll be paid what you're worth.'
"I faxed them my acceptance and told Vince that I will be leaving. Of course, I was disappointed it had to come down to this, as I had always considered him to be a father-figure to me. But when he asked me to drop the title to Shawn last night, I refused. I didn't think Shawn should be rewarded for his actions with a World title. Vince pushed for the title change and I wouldn't accept it. I told him my plans and he was willing to accept a Double DQ finish. And so, it happened last night. I locked in the sharpshooter and Hunter Hearst Helmsley got involved. Then Owen and Dave came out to make things right. I'm not really proud of how it ended, but I am still your champion until somebody says otherwise.
"So, I come out here tonight as a wrestler who respects this company more than anything else in the world. I'll admit, Eric Bischoff may be salivating at the thought of your WWF Champion headed to the WCW. And, I know a lot of you are probably upset that I will be leaving at the beginning of next month. I've heard the chants of 'You sold out' and it hurts. I'm not doing this because of money. Truth be told, the money doesn't hurt; I do feel I should be paid well for what I've brought to the table for all these years. But, as you now know, it isn't about the money. I had one direction for the company, Vince sees it differently. Sex has been more frequent on these shows, and I'm uncomfortable with it. Ultimately, Vince runs the show and I'm just a wrestler. I go in the ring, do what the Hitman does best and hopefully it makes you happy.
"But, I want to make this right. As I said, I will be leaving after the next PPV on December the 7th in Springfield, Massachusetts. But, I'm not going to take this title and hide. Starting tonight, and for the weeks leading into the PPV, I will be defending my title against the best this promotion has to offer. I will give all I have to make this title mean something. I'm not going to go on the WCW television program and trash the belt like I was asked. I want to leave with my head held high. I want people to look at Bret Hart and be proud of what he's done in his reigns as champion. I want you people to look at the guy who beats me as a worthy successor to the lineage of the title that such greats as Bruno Sammartino, Perdo Morales and Bob Backlund hold it.
"But, there's a catch. Before you all scream for a certain wrestler, I want to make something very clear. I have already signed my match for my last PPV, and it will be a rematch with Shawn Michaels. As much as I don't like him personally, he does give the fans a certain charm, a certain charisma that the WWF wants to tap into, and I can't fault them for that. Hopefully, for Shawn's sake, I will still be the champion by that time. I hope to prove, time and time again, that I am the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be. Thank you for letting me explain what's going on."

[Joekishi]

yes imo they would have offered him HUGE money to do so

Vince did the right thing

If Bret were to do the right thing it would have him been losing to HBK as a professional that's what he should have done

[uncleslam]

After reading Bret's book, I have no doubt in my mind that he would have kept his word and handed the belt over or jobbed it to anyone but Michaels. Too much respect for the business, too much respect for his father's reputation, which he seemed to be always trying to live up to.

The whole thing is so much sadder after reading his book, because he tells of all the times Vince broke his promises, and Bret still stuck around. Bret forgave all of those broken promises, but it seems Vince couldn't trust Bret in the end. Maybe it's because Vince realized how rotten he had been, and couldn't fathom any human being not trying to exact revenge on such behavior?

[thesunbeast]

The thing is, is that people keep saying how Bret's contract ran for a few more days with WWE, and that may or may not have been true. Reguardless, the thing is, is that he had ALREADY signed a contract with WCW. So technically, Bret was a WCW superstar just filling out contractual obligations with WWE on the night of Survivor Series. Bret could have been honest to goodness when he said that he would have handed over the belt the next night, but for all intents and purposes, Bret could have woken up the next morning, had a talk with his wife, and changed his mind. I think that was the risk that Vince wasn't willing to take.

[uncleslam]

This answers it for once and for all.

From Bret's book, page 281:

Flair had been working around the United States against Hogan, still wearing WCW's World Title belt and calling himself the real world champion. To this day I don't know why Flair didn't have more consideration for his old colleagues still struggling in WCW. For Vince it was a chance to stick his thumb in the eye of Ted Turner, but Flair had to know how much the use of their belt would hurt his former wrestler colleagues at the WCW.

I guess Vince was afraid of "what goes around comes around" and got paranoid.

[Joekishi]

x said:

The only way it would've worked would have been if Bret would've just lost in America but the schedule didn't work that way.

Blah what was so bad about losing in canada and going out on your back with a screwy finish involving triple h.

I mean HULK HOGAN went out on his back to yokozuna, put him over strong as 'ending' hulkamania and basically helped put over the new generation of wwf.

Austin, Owen, Bulldog, and Shamrock were nowhere near ready for the world title.

Undertaker was out due to injury, and mankind was fueding with HHH.

Shawn was the only choice and well i thought it worked out for the best.

If bret had so much honor why'd he have such a problem with jobbing.

still don't get how losing in canada is such a HUGE deal. My god Bret jobbed out patriot in the United States so many damn times.

So why does bret claim all of canada.

That whole arguement NEVER will make sense to me if he's a professional why not job out in a fake sport


also as a sidenote does anybody get irked by brets

"The WWF" and "THE WCW" having no respect for by him. i hated those promos.

the powers that be at the WCW won't give me a title shot at the WCW title in the WCW ring.

[King Fox -1017 Bricksquad]

Nah, Too much respect for the business.

[Nice Guy Cody]

basicboogeynomix said:

I mean HULK HOGAN went out on his back to yokozuna, put him over strong as 'ending' hulkamania and basically helped put over the new generation of wwf.

Yeah, if you consider losing because of being powdered in the face by an evil cameraman "putting Yokozuna over strong".
As for that act being something that put over the next generation . . . come on.

Not to mention that it came after a match where he demolished Yokozuna in nanoseconds.
You keep saying "If Bret had so much honor/why couldn't he job in Canada". Well if Hogan was such a shining example, why did he have to lose the belt in a dirty finish? Why did he refuse to drop it to Bret as planned? Why did he need to win it in a WM main event he wasn't in and hold it several months without defending it when he knew he was leaving?

[eDemento2099]

joekishi: Bret only had a problem jobbing to Shawn ON THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT. He said he had no problems dropping the belt to *anyone* the next night on raw.

[I Graduated Warrior University]

explodinglimo said:

kiddobradley said:

Shamrock, Kane, Undertaker, Austin, Mankind, and I think Vader were all people I believe Bret offered as possible alternatives. I know Mankind and Austin were for a fact.

Everyone on that list except for Shamrock I can see. At that point, I don't think Shamrock was anywhere near the main event scene. I always thought he was at his best in the three-way feud with the Rock and Mankind, which was later on.

He faced Shamrock* in the ME of the IYH: Degeneration X PPV, which wasn't long after SS, in fact it might have been the next PPV.
*-F*** I meant Shamrock. HBK clearly did not wrestle himself, damn weed!

[thesunbeast]

codylockemitchell said:

basicboogeynomix said:

I mean HULK HOGAN went out on his back to yokozuna, put him over strong as 'ending' hulkamania and basically helped put over the new generation of wwf.

Yeah, if you consider losing because of being powdered in the face by an evil cameraman "putting Yokozuna over strong".
As for that act being something that put over the next generation . . . come on.

Not to mention that it came after a match where he demolished Yokozuna in nanoseconds.
You keep saying "If Bret had so much honor/why couldn't he job in Canada". Well if Hogan was such a shining example, why did he have to lose the belt in a dirty finish? Why did he refuse to drop it to Bret as planned? Why did he need to win it in a WM main event he wasn't in and hold it several months without defending it when he knew he was leaving?

Hogan DID put Yoko over stong. Just because there was cheating involved dosen't mean anything. It isn't "Hogan's" mentatlity that he has to loose by cheating at all times, It's just the way the business is run.

[thestinger]

basicboogeynomix said:

If bret had so much honor why'd he have such a problem with jobbing.

Bret has answered this countless times. The answer is: because Shawn refused to drop to belt to Bret previously.

Bret saw this as a huge slap in the face as in his entire career at that point - Bret had never refused to job to anyone, ever. He said it was the most unprofessional thing he'd ever seen.

And MacMahon caved for his boyfriend, and Shawn didn't have to job to Bret so when it was time for Bret's last match in the WWF he didn't want to job to someone who refused to job to him.

Bret has reiterated countless times that this was the only time in his entire career he refused to go along with a planned finish -- and legally he was within his rights to do so.

[mo]

I believe Bischoff said in his book that it actually would've been illegal for Bret to bring the WWF belt on WCW TV or something similar to that, not sure if it can be believed but there's that.

[Deleted]

motakerfan said:

I believe Bischoff said in his book that it actually would've been illegal for Bret to bring the WWF belt on WCW TV or something similar to that, not sure if it can be believed but there's that.

When Ric Flair brought the big gold belt to the WWF, it sent wheels in motion by WCW to take the WWF to court. The title belt was the symbol of the company, and it was out of bounds for the WWF to use WCW's (Jim Herd's) mistake against them.

Thus, they made Flair stop using the WCW title in his debut with the WWF, although in my opinion, Flair was legally within his right to do so, considering he never got his deposit back. He paid his $25,000 down payment for the belt WCW never gave it back, so Flair assumed he owned the belt.

This was not much of an issue with the WWF Women's title, because 99% of the country had no idea what the belt even looked like. After watching Madusa drop that belt in the trash a few times, I had come to realize that was actually the AWA Women's belt she was discarding; a belt the WWF assumed possession of when they restarted their women's wing of the company.