bob
Backup Wench
The "other" Bob. FOC COURSE!
started the Madness Wars, Proudly the #1 Nana Hater on FAN
Posts: 80,497
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Post by bob on Dec 3, 2007 1:18:26 GMT -5
This was on a site, its most of Joe's promo: "They just gave me a live mic on a pay-per-view. So, if nobody minds, I'd like to get a few things off my chest. #1, we have two types of wrestlers here. We have the TNA die-hards who come here and entertain and bust their ass for the fans every night of the week, and we got *superstars* who think they can come and do whatever they want however they want. We have *superstars*, who not only screw us – the hard working "wrestlers" – in TNA, but they screw each and every fan who paid to see them, no matter how old they are. So lemme make this real simple, let me explain TNA to you. TNA is the Motor City Machine Guns coming down here and busting their ass, trying to get a break in this business; TNA is Black Machismo doing his damndest to entertain every single person in this building, and showing us what's up; TNA is Samoa Joe coming in here and doing what he does best, wrestle and be the best damn professional wrestler in the world; TNA is a bunch of hard working, young athletes who are looking to change the wrestling world; guys who held down this business while others profiteer from it; TNA is the guys who come in here and risk their lives on scaffolds and wires, while other people show up and pad their pensions. So I'll tell you what, Scott Hall - *chico* - I'll tell you what. Kiss my ass, you're a punk. *Looks at someone off camera* "Go ahead, fire me, I don't care. So tonight, I went in that locker room, and they said ‘we called everybody in the world trying to get you a new partner'., and I said ‘No, we don't need anybody else. We got everybody we need in the back right now'. So I walked in the back, and I said hey, who wants to be in the main event tonight? Who wants to go get into a fight? And EVERY ONE of the X-Division wrestlers stood up! I walked in the back and asked who wanted to get into a fight, and every single young wrestler whose first TV contract was through TNA stood up and said ‘ME'. But one in particular, bloodied, beaten, battered, bruised, overlooked by everybody in the world said ‘Joe, please give me the shot'. So without further due, I announce my partner; a man that will show up, a man that will be here, and do what he needs to do; a man who is ready for a fight. A man who will be a man, even when he's an old man. Showtime Eric Young, get out here let's kick some ass!" At least it wasn't worthless. It put over all their young talent, specifically MCMG, Lethal, EY, and Joe himself. how long before Joe's shoot end sup on youtube?
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Post by angryfan on Dec 3, 2007 1:19:09 GMT -5
You know, that argument is actually funny to me, because I've heard it before, only not in terms of WCW. That was the exact same logic used by Gagne and company as to why Bockwinkle shouldn't put Hogan over. I'm no Hogan fan, but, it does prove a point. If you never put the young guy or new guy over as important, by having him beat someone important, than the fans will never take him seriously. Somebody has to be willing to make the young talent look like main eventers, in order for the marks to view them as main eventers. And that's what that angle initially set out to do. It didn't get off the ground due to egos, not because of face/heel alignment. Very true. I don't disagree that, at first, you make the old guys the faces, and have the "heels" win over the crowd by making sense. And yes, t was ego tthat screwed it up so bad. One funny bit from all that, why was Scott Steiner in the "new blood" and Rick Steiner in the "Millionaire's Club"?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 3, 2007 1:22:45 GMT -5
The speech there REALLY sounds like it was written for a storyline. It might not be, but it sure sounds like it.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 3, 2007 1:28:22 GMT -5
I here this argument all the time, but do you really think the WCW fans attending the shows would cheer Billy Kidman over Hulk Hogan? Shane Douglas over Ric Flair? They almost had to make the Millionaire's Club the faces from the onset. You know, that argument is actually funny to me, because I've heard it before, only not in terms of WCW. That was the exact same logic used by Gagne and company as to why Bockwinkle shouldn't put Hogan over. Hogan was so over, that that it made no sense as to why he wasn't champion. AWA did that same thing to the Rockers. It was basically Hogan should have been champ sooner. The difference is huge between Hogan and Joe though.
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Post by hobo on Dec 3, 2007 1:56:37 GMT -5
I can't be the only one who thought the New Blood vs. Millionaire's Club was a great idea, can I? Good idea in theory at least, but a few problems in the execution. It probably would've worked if the New Blood had been the faces. Sure the WCW fans would never buy Sting as a heel, and at that time they were ready for a Hogan face run. No problem, just have them betray the Millionaire's Club and join the New Blood and act as their mentors.
If this is the direction TNA is going towards, hopefully they'll avoid this. Make sure that Joe and the TNA originals are the faces, and the "superstars" are the heels. And if there are any of the "superstars" that the crowd refuses to accept as heels, pull them out of the feud or align them with Joe. I think this could work.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 3, 2007 2:02:49 GMT -5
see it didn't matter heel/face
New Breed were heels even though they stood for being the younger guys who wanted the brass ring, but the originals stood for the original ECW.
Classic Kung Fu story.
Older kung fu master still top dog, young man trying to take his spot.
Really heel/face status didn't matter it was more on the overness of the new blood, that's why guys like Buff, Steiner, and Douglas were plugged into that group.
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Post by hobo on Dec 3, 2007 2:11:42 GMT -5
By the way, even though I'm a TNA defender, I have to say that the bait and switch and not cool, unless of course the Hall no show was legit.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Dec 3, 2007 6:16:45 GMT -5
I'm just saying I don't know how anybody can willfully cheer Joe over the sheer cool that is Big Daddy cool. Maybe it's the Nash mark in me talking, but i couldn't boo him. that was the same problem with the new blood, they were unestablished, most of them were heels, and they sorta just said "smurf those guys" and started to beat down the popular older guys. When guys like Luger who was a heel.. bah WCW 2000-2001 is a hazy memory for me. I get that you have this hatred for Joe, but not everyone feels the same as you though.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Dec 3, 2007 6:17:49 GMT -5
I here this argument all the time, but do you really think the WCW fans attending the shows would cheer Billy Kidman over Hulk Hogan? Shane Douglas over Ric Flair? They almost had to make the Millionaire's Club the faces from the onset. You know, that argument is actually funny to me, because I've heard it before, only not in terms of WCW. That was the exact same logic used by Gagne and company as to why Bockwinkle shouldn't put Hogan over. I'm no Hogan fan, but, it does prove a point. If you never put the young guy or new guy over as important, by having him beat someone important, than the fans will never take him seriously. Somebody has to be willing to make the young talent look like main eventers, in order for the marks to view them as main eventers. Sorry, Kidman was nowhere ready for a mainevent push and was way too scrawny and had no charisma either. It wouldn't have worked, and if he was so good, then he would've had a big push in WWE.
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Post by I'm The Cool One on Dec 3, 2007 8:56:16 GMT -5
this requires it's own thread, why?
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
The Green Arrow has approved this post.
Posts: 11,122
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Post by hollywood on Dec 3, 2007 9:39:10 GMT -5
This was on a site, its most of Joe's promo: "They just gave me a live mic on a pay-per-view. So, if nobody minds, I'd like to get a few things off my chest. #1, we have two types of wrestlers here. We have the TNA die-hards who come here and entertain and bust their ass for the fans every night of the week, and we got *superstars* who think they can come and do whatever they want however they want. We have *superstars*, who not only screw us – the hard working "wrestlers" – in TNA, but they screw each and every fan who paid to see them, no matter how old they are. So lemme make this real simple, let me explain TNA to you. TNA is the Motor City Machine Guns coming down here and busting their ass, trying to get a break in this business; TNA is Black Machismo doing his damndest to entertain every single person in this building, and showing us what's up; TNA is Samoa Joe coming in here and doing what he does best, wrestle and be the best damn professional wrestler in the world; TNA is a bunch of hard working, young athletes who are looking to change the wrestling world; guys who held down this business while others profiteer from it; TNA is the guys who come in here and risk their lives on scaffolds and wires, while other people show up and pad their pensions. So I'll tell you what, Scott Hall - *chico* - I'll tell you what. Kiss my ass, you're a punk. *Looks at someone off camera* "Go ahead, fire me, I don't care. So tonight, I went in that locker room, and they said ‘we called everybody in the world trying to get you a new partner'., and I said ‘No, we don't need anybody else. We got everybody we need in the back right now'. So I walked in the back, and I said hey, who wants to be in the main event tonight? Who wants to go get into a fight? And EVERY ONE of the X-Division wrestlers stood up! I walked in the back and asked who wanted to get into a fight, and every single young wrestler whose first TV contract was through TNA stood up and said ‘ME'. But one in particular, bloodied, beaten, battered, bruised, overlooked by everybody in the world said ‘Joe, please give me the shot'. So without further due, I announce my partner; a man that will show up, a man that will be here, and do what he needs to do; a man who is ready for a fight. A man who will be a man, even when he's an old man. Showtime Eric Young, get out here let's kick some ass!" At least it wasn't worthless. It put over all their young talent, specifically MCMG, Lethal, EY, and Joe himself. And Joe proves once again why he's TNA's most valuable assett. More valuable than Scott Hall. More valuable than Kevin Nash. More valuable than Kurt Angle. And as for the "New Blood/Millionaire's Club" feud, it was re-goddamned-tarded. Heel/face alignment DOES matter. The New Breed/ECW Originals feud worked well because it the alignments made sense. The Originals were very much over as babyfaces (and they weren't portrayed as MILLIONAIRES, but major underdogs), and the NB worked well as cocky young heels. And the smartass in me can't help but say the New Breed/ECW Originals feud also worked because Vince Russo had nothing to do with it.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Dec 3, 2007 9:45:43 GMT -5
This was on a site, its most of Joe's promo: "They just gave me a live mic on a pay-per-view. So, if nobody minds, I'd like to get a few things off my chest. #1, we have two types of wrestlers here. We have the TNA die-hards who come here and entertain and bust their ass for the fans every night of the week, and we got *superstars* who think they can come and do whatever they want however they want. We have *superstars*, who not only screw us – the hard working "wrestlers" – in TNA, but they screw each and every fan who paid to see them, no matter how old they are. So lemme make this real simple, let me explain TNA to you. TNA is the Motor City Machine Guns coming down here and busting their ass, trying to get a break in this business; TNA is Black Machismo doing his damndest to entertain every single person in this building, and showing us what's up; TNA is Samoa Joe coming in here and doing what he does best, wrestle and be the best damn professional wrestler in the world; TNA is a bunch of hard working, young athletes who are looking to change the wrestling world; guys who held down this business while others profiteer from it; TNA is the guys who come in here and risk their lives on scaffolds and wires, while other people show up and pad their pensions. So I'll tell you what, Scott Hall - *chico* - I'll tell you what. Kiss my ass, you're a punk. *Looks at someone off camera* "Go ahead, fire me, I don't care. So tonight, I went in that locker room, and they said ‘we called everybody in the world trying to get you a new partner'., and I said ‘No, we don't need anybody else. We got everybody we need in the back right now'. So I walked in the back, and I said hey, who wants to be in the main event tonight? Who wants to go get into a fight? And EVERY ONE of the X-Division wrestlers stood up! I walked in the back and asked who wanted to get into a fight, and every single young wrestler whose first TV contract was through TNA stood up and said ‘ME'. But one in particular, bloodied, beaten, battered, bruised, overlooked by everybody in the world said ‘Joe, please give me the shot'. So without further due, I announce my partner; a man that will show up, a man that will be here, and do what he needs to do; a man who is ready for a fight. A man who will be a man, even when he's an old man. Showtime Eric Young, get out here let's kick some ass!" At least it wasn't worthless. It put over all their young talent, specifically MCMG, Lethal, EY, and Joe himself. And Joe proves once again why he's TNA's most valuable assett. More valuable than Scott Hall. More valuable than Kevin Nash. More valuable than Kurt Angle. And as for the "New Blood/Millionaire's Club" feud, it was re-goddamned-tarded. Heel/face alignment DOES matter. The New Breed/ECW Originals feud worked well because it the alignments made sense. The Originals were very much over as babyfaces (and they weren't portrayed as MILLIONAIRES, but major underdogs), and the NB worked well as cocky young heels. And the smartass in me can't help but say the New Breed/ECW Originals feud also worked because Vince Russo had nothing to do with it. Seeing as Hogan, Sting and DDP were the most over faces on the brand at the time, it'd be most difficult to just have them try and be heel just for the sake of putting young guys over, who weren't all that over to begin with (i.e Kidman).
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
The Green Arrow has approved this post.
Posts: 11,122
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Post by hollywood on Dec 3, 2007 11:51:00 GMT -5
And Joe proves once again why he's TNA's most valuable assett. More valuable than Scott Hall. More valuable than Kevin Nash. More valuable than Kurt Angle. And as for the "New Blood/Millionaire's Club" feud, it was re-goddamned-tarded. Heel/face alignment DOES matter. The New Breed/ECW Originals feud worked well because it the alignments made sense. The Originals were very much over as babyfaces (and they weren't portrayed as MILLIONAIRES, but major underdogs), and the NB worked well as cocky young heels. And the smartass in me can't help but say the New Breed/ECW Originals feud also worked because Vince Russo had nothing to do with it. Seeing as Hogan, Sting and DDP were the most over faces on the brand at the time, it'd be most difficult to just have them try and be heel just for the sake of putting young guys over, who weren't all that over to begin with (i.e Kidman). Which only further proves why the angle was a stupid idea to begin with. JJ Dillon once said, fans care about things making sense, even in wrestling. It just made no sense for the "millionaires" to be the good guys and the guys trying to prove themselves were the bad guys. As over as guys like Sting and Hogan were as babyfaces, when I watched (and these were my pre-smarky days) I couldn't help but think, "Okay, why am I booing the guys who just want their shot again...?" In the ECW version, the NB didn't just want a shot, they wanted the Original to get the hell out of their way. They wanted the Originals' spots, and they'd cripple them if they had to. THAT'S evil, THAT'S a good bad guy. In WCW, the supposed villains just kept saying they wanted their shot and the "millionaires" were holdiong them back. That's it.
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Post by YouStayClassy on Dec 3, 2007 12:20:58 GMT -5
I'm just saying I don't know how anybody can willfully cheer Joe over the sheer cool that is Big Daddy cool. *raises hand so hard my arm breaks* I HATED Kevin Nash from day one for pure mark reasons, when he cost Jannetty the IC title. Over the years, that hatred grew to completely realistic reasons as he completely stunk up the ring with his horrid workrate and lazyness, yet always seemed to get the win. Not to mention his eye rolling promos, and hip references like the bald chick in Star Trek 1. If Cena hadn't come along, I would still consider Nash the worst WWF/E champion of the modern era.
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Dragonfly
Unicron
...is no Barry Windham.
Posts: 2,501
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Post by Dragonfly on Dec 3, 2007 12:36:09 GMT -5
TNA has done this angle before... twice, actually.
TNA vs. SEX - According to Jerry Jarrett's book (which I know I talk about way too much), SEX was a faction created to keep Vince Russo happy. Jarrett would book the wrestling-based TNA while Russo would be in charge of the sports-entertainment based SEX. The original idea at the time had Russo creating his own world title that would have been on par with the NWA World title, but only defended in "sports entertainment" style gimmick matches. The big finale would have been a NWA/SEX title unification match, with the NWA winning. The "title" thing obviously didn't happen, but the rest of it did.
"Gangs of New York" - This is the storyline that happened between AMW's heel turn and Lockdown 2006. I call it the "Gangs of New York" arc due to the similarities between it and the movie of the same name. Like the film, the arc focused around the "natives" (the Planet Jarrett/Team Canada super-faction, with Jarrett playing the role of Bill the Butcher) trying to run the "immigrants" out of New York... I mean, TNA.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 3, 2007 16:22:36 GMT -5
And Joe proves once again why he's TNA's most valuable assett. More valuable than Scott Hall. More valuable than Kevin Nash. More valuable than Kurt Angle. And as for the "New Blood/Millionaire's Club" feud, it was re-goddamned-tarded. Heel/face alignment DOES matter. The New Breed/ECW Originals feud worked well because it the alignments made sense. The Originals were very much over as babyfaces (and they weren't portrayed as MILLIONAIRES, but major underdogs), and the NB worked well as cocky young heels. And the smartass in me can't help but say the New Breed/ECW Originals feud also worked because Vince Russo had nothing to do with it. Seeing as Hogan, Sting and DDP were the most over faces on the brand at the time, it'd be most difficult to just have them try and be heel just for the sake of putting young guys over, who weren't all that over to begin with (i.e Kidman). Yeah seriously Hogan, Sting, and DDP. and they expect scrubs like Kidman, VAmpiro, Chuck Palumbo, and Sean Stasiak to actually compete with these guys?
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Post by GaTechGrad on Dec 3, 2007 17:40:00 GMT -5
Joe's "shoot" seemed more like Joey Style's worked shoot on RAW, where he explained the differences between "wrestling" and "sports entertainment"... and I'm sure Russo didn't have anything to do with what Joey Styles said.
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ICBM
King Koopa
Didn't know we did status updates here now
Posts: 12,288
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Post by ICBM on Dec 3, 2007 17:40:47 GMT -5
If Hall's no-show was real (for some reason I don't) than I am done with one of my favorites of all time. If it was a work than Joe was the right guy to do this angle with. Can't miss if it's a work
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Post by elmstreetkid on Dec 4, 2007 1:07:13 GMT -5
"Joe's gonna verbally denigrate you!" (clap clap clapclapclap)
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Dec 4, 2007 1:46:23 GMT -5
"Joe's gonna verbally denigrate you!" (clap clap clapclapclap) Now thats a crowd chant I can get behind!
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