The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Dec 21, 2007 23:31:08 GMT -5
^Agreed. Just like with WCW. TNAs problems are 80% business, economics, marketing etc and have very little to do with the actual on screen product. I agree with that too, actually. I think TNA actually has too big of a roster which results in too many tag matches and run-ins.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Dec 21, 2007 23:35:08 GMT -5
"...AJ Styles from a master technician to a goofy stooge." Now, I'm a HUGE fan of AJ but I certainly wouldn't call his style of wrestling technical. Therefor he really isnt and never was a master technician...maybe a master ariel artist...but not technician... AJ is a high flyer, no doubt, but it's not like that's all he does. Granted, as you say, he's no master technician, but he's certainly got some technical abilities. Baiter? Sorry, easy joke.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Dec 21, 2007 23:56:56 GMT -5
TNA isn't looking to find themselves. They just are clueless on how to get the fans attention. TNA blew there biggest money making feud last year. if Paul Heyman or even Eric Bischoff was booking TNA, Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe would drawn a huge number.
TNA biggest problem is that they can't book. I mean there PPVs, what makes them so special compared to an Impact? From what I've seen just about nothing. I mean there last three PPV's and the impacts that follows proves it.
Lets see Sting winning the World title at there "biggest PPV of the year". To only loss it back to Angle at the next Impact. That like anybody who won the big title at Wrestlemania to only loss it back to the guy you beat on Raw the next night. It makes it pointless.
The next month was another stupid PPV Main event idea. lets have a Single title on the line in a tag match as if the partner of the champion didn't want the belt himself. Smooth move.
The last PPV is the biggest prime example of pathic the booking is. That whole idea of freast or Frie was dumb as it is. Not only that the "winners" instead of revealing what they "won" on the PPV that fans order to see who gets what. That go into the following impact to show the arriving to the arena with those Briefcases but later giving them back and play a game with it.
On top of that having Samoa Joe "shoot" on his partners. That same impact he and Nash act like what happened at the PPV never happened.
I don't care who is booking the crap Mantel or Russo. They both are doing the job and neither one of them are doing a good job of it.
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Ace Diamond
Patti Mayonnaise
Believes in Adrian Veidt, as Should We All.
mmm...flavor text
Posts: 36,043
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Post by Ace Diamond on Dec 22, 2007 0:04:51 GMT -5
Florida?
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Post by i.Sarita.com on Dec 22, 2007 0:31:32 GMT -5
"...AJ Styles from a master technician to a goofy stooge." Now, I'm a HUGE fan of AJ but I certainly wouldn't call his style of wrestling technical. Therefor he really isnt and never was a master technician...maybe a master ariel artist...but not technician... AJ is a high flyer, no doubt, but it's not like that's all he does. Granted, as you say, he's no master technician, but he's certainly got some technical abilities. Baiter? Sorry, easy joke. Yeah, I didn't mean to make it seem like I think AJ is a spot monkey or anything like that...the man is amazing in the ring...
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 22, 2007 0:59:38 GMT -5
I really think TNA should not put their focus on being competition or trying to get to WWE's level. They just won't.
THey are doing really well with their audience pulling in the 1.1's consistently. That's a good thing. What they should really focus on is selling people on the PPV's. That's where most of their income comes from is strictly from PPV.
Getting the names out there and not putting on "STAR STUDDED" shows with non-endings is not the way to really sell the PPV.
With WWE you got all those big event matches happening on the PPV that were built up on the 3 brands, or with the single brand PPV's all the fueds built up on RAW/SD, with the blow off at the PPV.
With TNA you have the blowoff happening AFTER the PPV which literally makes no sense.
Oh and the best thing AJ has done by going heel is slowing down, and by going tag team his regular moveset just fits in more with multi-man matches
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Post by Hensley on Dec 22, 2007 6:01:47 GMT -5
I mark for Love & Sky, they be the only women's tag team ever!
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comahan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,899
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Post by comahan on Dec 22, 2007 7:21:03 GMT -5
AJ would be on the same spot of the card that he is right now if he was his old bland babyface self. The only thing different now is that he is 1000000000x more entertaining outside of the ring than he was before, and hangs around with established superstars. (And hes is essentially the centerpiece of the main event storyline over the last few months, and 1/2 of the Tag Champions, damn them for treating him like crap!)
He is still doing the same things in the ring that he used to do, he is still "Phenomenal", as evidenced on this past week against Kaz, his tag matches with Tomko, Lethal Lockdown, King of The Mountain, and so on. Just about every match that hes in West says "well ya gotta admit.. he IS phenomenal" after AJ hits the same signature moves he's always done. The only thing different now is that he's adding a heel element to his ring work; slowing it down a bit by going to the outside when hes getting beaten up, talking trash, more overall showmanship, and so on.
Long story short, AJ didnt randomly transform from amazing wrestler to goofy stooge. He transformed from amazing wrestler to amazing wrestler who happens to be a goofy stooge, that actually has a character and a personality, all while remaining at the same spot on the card he would have been had he kept doing what he was doing as a bland babyface.
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Post by Thank You Shawn on Dec 22, 2007 7:50:11 GMT -5
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Post by Redbeard's Ghost on Dec 22, 2007 8:17:11 GMT -5
TNA will not compete with WWE anytime soon. Why? Oh, let me count the reasons:
1. All of their shows look over produced. The "Impact Zone" which is nothing more than an attraction at a theme park, is literally the same concept as WCW Saturday Night was in the mid 90's. They tape 2 weeks worth of TV on one day and their spoilers are all over the net that night. This would be ok, as long as they have quality high demand matches that fans want to see, but they dont. That leads us to......
2. Booking. Vince Russo is a tool. I can smell his influence on the product because it feels like 1998-2000 WCW, which was possibly the worst booked promotion ever at the time. The stupid gimmick matches, the crazy every week title merry go round, the old aging egotistical wrestlers trying to cling to past glory. It smells like Russo alright. The Steiners? Nash? Sting? Sounds like a PPV from 1994. It wouldnt be so bad if they actually had atmosphere on their shows, but they dont. That leads us to.....
3. Production. Taping shows kills the value in this day and age. The wrestling fans who drove the Monday Night Wars are all grown up now (ex. I am now 30) and we dont have time to watch 4 shows a week unless it is really worth our time, "must see" TV. We have wives, kids, jobs, etc. I check the spoilers for TNA each week. If I see matches I gotta watch, I tune in, although it seldom happens. RAW is a must watch for me, SD not so much, ECW only if I am not busy. Look at the ratings even 3-4 years ago compared to now. The newer generation of fans does not have the numbers to drive a second major company. Look at the numbers for SD each week. The rating is lower than RAW and it is on NETWORK TV. Why? I think alot of it has to do with it being taped. It doesnt have that "anything can happen" feeling. TNA needs to get out of their studio arena and into some small towns across America for their TV. Go live and get a hot crowd in there. Make it feel like a real show. Right now, it looks like Wrestling Society X did, over produced.....a TV show...cut, chopped and edited with no rhyme or reason.
4. The Ring. Another reason why TNA fails is their setup. The 6 sided ring is fantastic for the X Division. It adds another element to the matches and gives guys like Elix Skipper, Chris Sabin, etc. more to work with. When you have guys like Nash or Sting in there, or the Steiners, they can't utilize that element and the ring is too small for their styles. They look, for lack of a better term, stupid. Either ditch the 6 sided ring or commit to your younger, faster workers.
5. Spike TV. Spike is notorious for demanding name value and assisted input on wrestling shows. They did it to ECW (back when they were TNN), WWF and now they are doing it to TNA. They want to see the old stars on their show because they feel it brings in more casual viewers. They frown on long, technical matches because they feel fans want the quick impact driven matches instead. Spike was one of the main reasons why the 2002-2004 WWE misused so many stars. They simply will not keep their hands out of the wrestling cookie jar.
So basically, to compete with WWE, TNA needs to commit to a style of wrestling and stick with it, then up their production value to get out of the Impact Zone and into LIVE, arena or dome shows to give them hot crowds and the "anything can happen" feeling. They need to book better, cut aging old egos, and make their mark. After that, its a matter of time. Time to hook younger fans and bring back the casual fan who has moved on to MMA or whatever. Do that, give it 3 years and then they will have a shot.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2007 8:28:37 GMT -5
2. Booking. Vince Russo is a tool. I can smell his influence on the product because it feels like 1998-2000 WCW, which was possibly the worst booked promotion ever at the time. The stupid gimmick matches, the crazy every week title merry go round, the old aging egotistical wrestlers trying to cling to past glory. It smells like Russo alright. The Steiners? Nash? Sting? Sounds like a PPV from 1994. It wouldnt be so bad if they actually had atmosphere on their shows, but they dont. That leads us to..... Uhm that pretty much makes no sense. Angle with the exception of a week. Has been world Champion since June. Lethal and Aj/Tomko have both held their titles for multiple months. Wheres the title merry go round? Russo didn't start booking WCW until late '99. So if WCW sucked in 98, that was Bischoff. Nash, Steiner and and Sting were all brought in before Russo. And he wasn't booking in '94. So why would the current booking have any correlation to that?
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Dec 22, 2007 8:51:48 GMT -5
2. Booking. Vince Russo is a tool. I can smell his influence on the product because it feels like 1998-2000 WCW, which was possibly the worst booked promotion ever at the time. The stupid gimmick matches, the crazy every week title merry go round, the old aging egotistical wrestlers trying to cling to past glory. It smells like Russo alright. The Steiners? Nash? Sting? Sounds like a PPV from 1994. It wouldnt be so bad if they actually had atmosphere on their shows, but they dont. That leads us to..... Uhm that pretty much makes no sense. Angle with the exception of a week. Has been world Champion since June. Lethal and Aj/Tomko have both held their titles for multiple months. Wheres the title merry go round? Russo didn't start booking WCW until late '99. So if WCW sucked in 98, that was Bischoff. Nash, Steiner and and Sting were all brought in before Russo. And he wasn't booking in '94. So why would the current booking have any correlation to that? WCW was pretty good actually in 98, it was just towards the end of the year where things started to wind down a bit.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2007 10:12:51 GMT -5
I can't say it's a lack of availability, it's access. Checking out the top twenty cable systems, Spike TV is 12th - with about 91.5 million homes in which it is available; about the same as TBS, but not as many as TNT. (Discovery Channel, by the way, is 1st - followed by ESPN.) But, let's face it, where is Spike TV on your cable system? Chances are, it's not in the first 30 or 40 channels. (On mine, it's 57.) Unless,
a) You're a regular viewer of Spike TV, b) Not a regular visitor to the channel but you know when TNA Impact! is on, c) You have it saved as a favorite, you're not going to be watching Thursdays and/or Saturdays.
Know how I found Impact this week? Flipping channels. And, it's a testament to the loads of crap that was airing Thursday that I even made it to 57. (Usually, I stop by the time I get to 44, which is Disney.) If I go further, it's to check out the news on 50, 51 & 52. (My ESPNs are 33, 34 & 35, with a Comcast Sports at 38.)
If Spike TV was on a better located channel like TBS and TNT was in the WCW days (22 and 27, respectively), they'd have more viewers. But, they don't, so they need to focus on something within the promotion to get viewers hooked on wrestling at that time.
Getting a "few" former WWE stars is fine. I'm not going to argue that familiarity could equal more regular viewers. (Their main demographic became hooked during the Monday Night battles and the "Attitude" era.) But, pick and frickin' choose a few. Don't raid the entire roster of guys who were released and/or fired. Tomko is a nice go; they're doing a decent job of him. Christian Cage, absolutely. Kurt Angle, only a fool would pass him up.
But, you can't just pick up every guy who used to work there. And, even when you do get them, you have to do something with them. Not everybody is getting the big belt. Somebody has to do the job. (That killed Rhino. He was champ for like 3 weeks and all of a sudden, his career took a sharp turn and he was jobbing every frickin' week.) This is where your writers need to have direction, and this smells of Vince Russo's short-term planning blowing up in his face. You pushed him as championship material, but for what? He wasn't even putting over the next guy in line for a title shot (which would make perfect logical sense); they just threw him in the Raven-Abyss-random monster who takes sick bumps "Clockwork Orange House Of Fun" freak show to be forgotten about.
I want to see some long-term planning that doesn't involve repeat airings of the same ol' crap. I want some new minds on the creative team with fresh ideas. Give a guy a character and make it stick. If it works, LEAVE IT ALONE! Don't swerve him, don't change his gimmick just because somebody in the back doesn't like the fact this certain guy's getting over with it. If it's over, that's money in everybody's pocket. God forbid you might draw a couple of more fans because of it.
If your characters look like they don't care, then we won't care. If your show has no direction (no common goal except to just put matches on TV you should be charging for on PPV), then we're going to change the channel.
Just a couple of thoughts following this. I don't want to take up too much room on one post.
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The Panda Powered
Trap-Jaw
The Panda: Kicked Vinces' Ass and funds the competition
Posts: 328
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Post by The Panda Powered on Dec 22, 2007 10:21:36 GMT -5
I'm going to put it this way: UFC is to MMA as WWE is to pro wrestling. The mass-market sees it this way, and for the most part they are right. TNA, ROH and the like just aren't going to break out as people see professional wrestling as a collective whole as WWE.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2007 10:25:58 GMT -5
-Why should I care about Miss Brooks when Robert Roode treats her like dirt, especially since she kept screwing Eric Young out of matches a year ago (on behalf of Robert Roode)? -Why is Christy Hemme a heel? Isn't this the same angle with Sunny the WWF did 11-12 years ago (where the only person anyone cares about in the angle is Sunny and the wrestlers were an afterthought)? -Why do we have beer-drinking contests? And, does this prove anything besides "we don't know what else to do"? -Why did Jackie Moore have a Confederate flag on her hat? Isn't this branded as racist? (I haven't seen it lately; maybe somebody finally clued in the creative people that maybe this isn't the best way to show she's from Tennessee.) -Who is Johnny Divine and why is he allied with Team 3D? (Think Rob Conway coming out the crowd in an Air Force uniform to supposedly battle La Resistance, but instead ally with them "for shock value".) -If the X Division is "not about weight limits, it's about NO limits", why are the only guys standing up to Team 3D on behalf of the X-Division title the little scrawny guys who make the WCW Cruiserweight division look like giants in comparison? (Except for the Motor City guys, I mean.) -I don't mind the sudden influx of women wrestlers, but why can't they ever wrestle longer than 5 minutes? I thought these were the best independents women's wrestling had to offer? (Hell, I seen ODB take Angel Williams to a good 15 minute match in IWA Mid-South a few years ago. It can work.) -Why is Kurt so "whipped" by Karen? Doesn't this take him down a notch in the "cool" department? -Why is Kevin Nash there? If he isn't wrestling, keep him off of my TV unless he's replacing Don West. Quit pushing the Outsiders, Scott Hall will not show up. Kevin Nash doing funny skits do not put money into anybody's pocket except Kevin Nash's. -Why does Mike Tenay shout so much? Is everything really that surprising, considering they do the same thing every week? -Why do the X-Division four-ways always seem to have the obligatory "everybody dives outside of the ring onto everybody" bit? -Why are they putting Samoa Joe on the backburner? -When did Scott Steiner turn face? How? (This guy shaking hands with fans just doesn't look right - and could get ugly with his past history.)
Please keep in mind, this is all from someone who watches Impact maybe once a month.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 22, 2007 10:36:14 GMT -5
Yeah, most of your questions could be answered if you watched more than once a month (i.e. Joe's not really on the "back burner", Christy's not the full focus of the feud her teams' in, stuff like that).
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jobberjoe
Trap-Jaw
enhancing talent since the Nixon administration
Posts: 457
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Post by jobberjoe on Dec 22, 2007 10:45:28 GMT -5
Impact is my fave show each week(although Raw XV was the free show of the year- with the Turkey Bowl a close second)
I was watching a DVD-R copy of the Xmas episode of Impact today and the delivery guys where checking it out- one guy asked what I was watching and the other guy said it looked like ECW or something
I think the average person has yet to be exposed to TNA- but wrestling in general is far from it's peak right now and with the deaths and drugs it has been a crappy year to be a fan- my hardest yet
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Post by rzombie1988 on Dec 22, 2007 11:10:36 GMT -5
TNA's not going to improve on anything anytime soon. These are just my biggest problems with TNA:
They've ruined their top future star(Joe) and they've really created no new stars of their own besides Black Machismo and maybe LAX(and alas, LAX has done nothing of note besides the new member who is obviously a girl). They also rely on the past too much, and give stars of the past preferential treatment.
They have completely retarted booking which is filled with goofy gimmick matches and storylines. The bad storylines include people jumping from face to heel every show and almost every tag team being at odds with each other. They also rarely have continuity or payoffs to their storylines.
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Post by nerdinitupagain on Dec 22, 2007 11:28:09 GMT -5
The breakout feud should've been in 2006 but Joe/Angle was hot shotted and not done like it should've been. Also, LAX should've have been a 100% license to print money angle.. but as soon as Russo came in.. LAX was completely screwed up.
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Ace Diamond
Patti Mayonnaise
Believes in Adrian Veidt, as Should We All.
mmm...flavor text
Posts: 36,043
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Post by Ace Diamond on Dec 22, 2007 16:19:02 GMT -5
OH DAMN IT! EMORY! IT WAS THE FRY MAN AGAIN!!!
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