pacino
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,504
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Post by pacino on Dec 22, 2007 16:36:18 GMT -5
It seems to me that TNA is slowbuilding a lot of these angles and face/heel turns. LAX certainly isn't being rushed, nor is the angle they are in. Neither is Roode/Booker, Jay Lethal/So Cal Val, MCMG/Team 3D, Angle Alliance/Christian Coalition, Gail/Kong, etc etc The only thing that seems out of place is Joe's current status, and we really don't know where that is going. BUT ISN'T THAT A GOOD THING TO NOT KNOW?!
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Post by Michael Coello on Dec 22, 2007 16:41:59 GMT -5
Also, LAX should've have been a 100% license to print money angle.. but as soon as Russo came in.. LAX was completely screwed up. Actually, as soon as Russo came: 1)LAX won their second title at Bound for Glory over AJ & Daniels 2)Disbanded AMW. 3)First non-Americans to win a Flag Match(possibly) 4)Beat Team 3D about 5 out of 6 times. 5)Had one of the best matches at BFG 07 in UX: LAX vs. XXX, and were congratulated for it. I'd dare to say Russo helped LAX, especially since before him: 1)LAX were job boys to The James Gang, and eventually everyone else. 2)They didn't ever wrestle cause they were protesting for the Latinos. Oh, yeah, they were Sooo much better before Russo.....
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Post by i.Sarita.com on Dec 22, 2007 16:52:29 GMT -5
-Why should I care about Miss Brooks when Robert Roode treats her like dirt, especially since she kept screwing Eric Young out of matches a year ago (on behalf of Robert Roode)?
*Why should you care? Because she's changed from being a heel to a sympathetic face? That happens in wrestling ya know...
-Why is Christy Hemme a heel? Isn't this the same angle with Sunny the WWF did 11-12 years ago (where the only person anyone cares about in the angle is Sunny and the wrestlers were an afterthought)?
*How can you really bring up something from 11-12 years ago and use that as a reason why the gimmick is bad? EVERYTHING in wrestling has been done in one way or another at this point...and she really isn't even the focus of the team anymore...
-Why do we have beer-drinking contests? And, does this prove anything besides "we don't know what else to do"?
*Ever hear of comedic angles? You like bringing up things from the past that don't apply, so now I will...what's the point of dowsing a guy in beer with a hose from a beer truck? Or having a singing contest? Entertainment? Naw...not in my wrestling show!
-Why did Jackie Moore have a Confederate flag on her hat? Isn't this branded as racist? (I haven't seen it lately; maybe somebody finally clued in the creative people that maybe this isn't the best way to show she's from Tennessee.)
*The Confederate flag doesn't represent racism to most people from the south, it's a sign of heritage and history. The only people who seem to be caught up with thinking it's racist are some northerners and people who try to claim everything is racist...but lets try not to go there...
-Who is Johnny Divine and why is he allied with Team 3D? (Think Rob Conway coming out the crowd in an Air Force uniform to supposedly battle La Resistance, but instead ally with them "for shock value".)
*Johnny Devine has been a heel for pretty much his entire TNA run, first being part of Team Canada, then the PP, and then Seritonin...why is it any surprise to you that he'd join up with some heels and battle the rest of the faces in the X Division? He's ALWAYS done that...but you'd have to watch more than once or read spoilers to know that...
-If the X Division is "not about weight limits, it's about NO limits", why are the only guys standing up to Team 3D on behalf of the X-Division title the little scrawny guys who make the WCW Cruiserweight division look like giants in comparison? (Except for the Motor City guys, I mean.)
*Who else would be considered in the X Division that's on the roster? Sonny Siaki doesn't work for them anymore, and Samoa Joe has moved on past that point...plus Joe never liked being labeled an X Division star. He had his own crusade to destroy the division by beating everyone for a year...and how are The Guns any bigger than Jay Lethal?
-I don't mind the sudden influx of women wrestlers, but why can't they ever wrestle longer than 5 minutes? I thought these were the best independents women's wrestling had to offer? (Hell, I seen ODB take Angel Williams to a good 15 minute match in IWA Mid-South a few years ago. It can work.)
*Women's wrestling has never been a big draw to the mainstream wrestling fan, and TNA focuses on pleasing them...the regular WWE and TNA fan doesn't know or give a damn about IWA Mid-South...eventually when they to show off the skill they have, the fans will responde more and then they'll be given more time to shine...like they did at Bound For Glory this year...
-Why is Kurt so "whipped" by Karen? Doesn't this take him down a notch in the "cool" department?
*Kurt's playing the goofball heel that he's played in the past, wasn't he whipped by Stephanie a few years ago? Hasn't he always been good at playing the weasle heel? And the fact that he can break your freakin' neck in the ring makes up for the lack of badassness...
-Why is Kevin Nash there? If he isn't wrestling, keep him off of my TV unless he's replacing Don West. Quit pushing the Outsiders, Scott Hall will not show up. Kevin Nash doing funny skits do not put money into anybody's pocket except Kevin Nash's.
*Kevin Nash's skits with the X Division got RAVE reviews and got a lot of people to like Nash again...they tuned in to see said skits and laughed there asses off...how is that useless? I admit that they shouldn't be pushing him in the ring because he's a timebomb, but he certainly isn't worthless..
-Why does Mike Tenay shout so much? Is everything really that surprising, considering they do the same thing every week?
*The same reason Jerry Lawler's been a pervert for the last 10 years? Don West has been screaming on TV for YEARS now, not just on TNA...that's his schtick, regardless of how annoying it is...which it is...but hey, I can look past it...
-Why do the X-Division four-ways always seem to have the obligatory "everybody dives outside of the ring onto everybody" bit?
*Because it's exciting to see people fly? Because what other show on national television can we see people do that? Not the WWE...not with safe style...what about ROH? Some of those guys go insane with high risk moves...the stuff is exciting to most people, well people who aren't negative about everything...
-Why are they putting Samoa Joe on the backburner?
*Being in a Main Event at a PPV is the backburner? Being the center of a revolt agains't the old guard of the company is the backburner? Being a multiple time main eventer, tag team and X Division champion is the backburner? oooooookay....
-When did Scott Steiner turn face? How? (This guy shaking hands with fans just doesn't look right - and could get ugly with his past history.)
*Steiner was turned faced do to being paired back up with his brother, nostalgia always gets over with the fans...plus when ya have to choose, wouldn't you want Team 3D as the heels? It's what they do best after all...
"Please keep in mind, this is all from someone who watches Impact maybe once a month."
So, why even waste the time to write out pety complaints when you don't even watch the show? Of course it's going to be dissapointing if you go into the show expecting to be dissapointed...I watch TNA to be entertained with a wrestling show that isn't the WWE formula...that's not the main reason though, the main reason is that I LOVE wrestling...sure, there are things in TNA that I scratch my head and go "What the hell?" but it doesn't make me want to complain about it or even stop watching...think of the glass half full once in awhile, it'll make the sure a lot more enjoyable...
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Post by thestinger on Dec 22, 2007 16:56:39 GMT -5
The bad storylines include people jumping from face to heel every show This is something a lot of people say about TNA, but nobody has ever been able to back up. The last 'turn' was Christian Cage in the past few weeks. He was a heel for a year and a half. Before that the most recent turn was Kurt Angle way back at Slammiversary in June. And there was Team 3D turning heel in July -- six months ago. Who else has had a face/heel turn in 2007? Lance Hoyt, Scott Steiner and Kaz. Wow that's practically the entire roster! And the turns are very slow. They NEVER come out of nowhere. Abyss and Kaz took months. Ms. Brooks has been turning face forever.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,278
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Post by Sephiroth on Dec 22, 2007 17:01:21 GMT -5
TNA has two real problems when put alongside WWE. The first, and biggest, is simply that wrestling is the decidedly uncool thing to watch right now. And with the current perception that wrestlers are all roid pumped lunatics who are going to go crazy and kill someone, that is not likely to change anytime soon. Lest we forget, during the most successful periods for wrestling it was a hot topic, the in thing to watch. You could not walk through an urban shopping mall without seeing at least a few people wearing Steve Austin, DX, or Rock t-shirts. Right now, wrestling is not the in thing to watch. If it ever does become so again, TNA will find itself making a huge jump in ratings.
And second, TNA does not have anywhere near the kind of marketing power WWE has. WWE has had wrestler's guest star in television shows and movies. WWE has had women in Playboy. WWE has had wrestlers on the cover of fitness magazines. WWE has its own in house movie production team, magazine staff, and a juggernaut marketing machine. Lest we forget, TNA is still very much an upstart. WWE has had decades to build such resources. And WCW was under the Turner media empire's umbrella, so such things were practically taken care of for them. TNA does not have such advantages. They are taking it little bit at a time. And thus far, I'd say they have done an admirable job at that.
I trust I am not the only one who remembers that TNA emerged at a time when there was still a flurry of new promotions, all jockeying to be the next WCW or ECW. There was WWA, XPW, XWF, and the newly formed ROH. Out of all them, TNA has managed to survive and emerge as the only true alternative to WWE. Those achievements are impressive alone. They have grown slowly but surely, and unless something drastic goes wrong, they look poised to keep this upward trend going.
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JD Turk
Team Rocket
The freshest man on Wrestlecrap!
Posts: 997
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Post by JD Turk on Dec 22, 2007 17:50:45 GMT -5
Agree with above post.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 22, 2007 19:08:46 GMT -5
Also, LAX should've have been a 100% license to print money angle.. but as soon as Russo came in.. LAX was completely screwed up. Actually, as soon as Russo came: 1)LAX won their second title at Bound for Glory over AJ & Daniels 2)Disbanded AMW. 3)First non-Americans to win a Flag Match(possibly) 4)Beat Team 3D about 5 out of 6 times. 5)Had one of the best matches at BFG 07 in UX: LAX vs. XXX, and were congratulated for it. I'd dare to say Russo helped LAX, especially since before him: 1)LAX were job boys to The James Gang, and eventually everyone else. 2)They didn't ever wrestle cause they were protesting for the Latinos. Oh, yeah, they were Sooo much better before Russo..... Not to mention, the only reason they are where they're at now is the fans. The fans turned LAX, and their gimmick can't really work unless their heels. So the person who said that Russo messed up LAX is one of the reasons why LAX has been on a downturn. And even still, LAX is still one of the most successful teams in TNA when you look at the big picture. Team 3D and the Machine Guns have been trading wins, R/R Infection lose a lot to LAX, and VKM doesn't wrestle all that much now. Also, to the point before with talent booking themselves, back in 1997, two people had creative control over their characters. Hulk Hogan and Raven. The reason Raven had creative control was because he wasn't going to infringe on anyone else's angle to get himself over. He was gonna keep him, his group, and the people they were feuding with in their own little lane of traffic. Of course, he didn't have the political power some did, as he was supposed to have a big angle with Roddy Piper to help put him in the main event, but the main event talent killed that because that would take away one of their spots. That's the main reason why guys like Jericho, Konnan, Raven and others got far, but couldn't get to the main event. And with Nash, the whole thing with him vs the X-Division was something he stole from Scott Hall, because Hall wanted to be the Crusierweight bully. And it was well booked, but his health couldn't keep the feud going. He shouldn't be wrestling anyway because of his condition, but I think he would really help with creative.
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Mayhem
Don Corleone
BANNED.
No dreams breed in breathless sleep...
Posts: 1,590
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Post by Mayhem on Dec 22, 2007 20:35:20 GMT -5
For me, TNA has been a steady disappintment from day one. They've consistently had more talent on the roster than WWE, yet the overa quality of the show is roughly equal. You'd think that they'd want to be an actual alternative, rather than a clone of latter-era WCW
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,278
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Post by Sephiroth on Dec 22, 2007 21:09:33 GMT -5
As far as TNA having more talent on roster than WWE, that point is arguable. WWE definitely as more wrestlers than TNA does on the payroll. Remember, WWE has 3 shows with 3 different rosters. It can be argued TNA has some more talented wrestlers on their rosters. There is no comparing John Cena to Samoa Joe, or Randy Orton to AJ Styles in terms of their in ring ability.
Yeah, I agree TNA has made some of the same exact mistakes WCW did. Personally, I could have cared less if I never saw Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Randy Savage, and various others on television ever again. But they have also done one thing right that WCW did not-they have largely used that older, established talent to help get over new faces and make them recognized by fans.
I also agree somewhat that TNA has not quite found their identity yet. I give them credit for what they have done-tried desperately to find some hot new idea or genre. They have introduced a six sided ring, a PPV that consists of cage matches only, the X division and ultimate X match that followed.
Lets all be honest-TNA is a wrestling company, and there is only so much that they, or any wrestling company, can really do with itself in the amount of time they have. It can be argued using all the ex WWE wrestlers is a mistake. But would anyone watch if TNA tried to get started with a bunch of people who no one has ever heard of before? People bought TNA's early PPV's to see Ken Shamrock, Jeff Jarrett, Sabu, The Sandman, and others who they already knew. They only started watching to see AJ Styles or Samoa Joe after they had become known entities to them.
TNA has done pretty well for how long they have been around. Sure, they have made some pretty big blunders, such as the already infamous backstage altercation when they tried to approach WWE stars with balloons and cookies. They've also put out some pretty lame storylines and characters. But I blame all that on their desperation to tap into some new vein. They are making the classic wrestling mistake of impatience. If they just took their time and let things build up slowly, I bet their product would look a lot different right now.
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greate
Mephisto
Swearenger is the man
Posts: 698
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Post by greate on Dec 22, 2007 21:35:06 GMT -5
The WWE is synonymous with wrestling, and it's difficult for the majority of the public who are familiar with wrestling to get behind any other product. The reason why WCW was able to compete was a) they had a good idea with Nitro but b) and more importantly they had a built in audience. They had the people who had grown up on the NWA, not the WWE. Now a days, WWE is a global company -- everybody knows it, and nobody knows the competition.
Part B is right on the spot, wrestling IS WWE. Let's face it, when you're marketing yourself as "big time" like TNA it's not very convincing that you're shows are in a rented friggin Studio that can hold 1000 people. They're rushing the issue and getting way over they're heads.
I definitely feel the need to defend Angelina Love and Velvet Skye. So they have a porn star gimmick? Ok, what's wrong with that. At least they are female wrestlers with characters. In WWE, women fall under two categories. Happy go lucky and psycho. That's it. There's rarely an in between and there's rarely character development. Obviously, there will be some exceptions (Trish, Lita),
So what if they have characters, Sky and love are annoying to most people and forced because two blondes acting like whores is hardly convincing. People don't buy it therefore they can't get behind it. You talk about Trish and Lita but those two had been in the business succesfully for many many years, they're recognizable to the fans. Trish was your basic "happy go lucky" who had 6 title reigns so it's not about the "gimmick", people build their reputations and eventually fans will know what they're about. Scott Steiner for example, he has his own stuff but that's not why people cheer for him, it's because they KNOW him and know what he can do/has done.
EDIT: The reason you don't see much of WWE's womens are because they're dumped to OVW or fired in a very short span. My response wasn't exactly as detailed as i wanted it to be but its 4 am so....
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Post by thestinger on Dec 22, 2007 22:01:21 GMT -5
So what if they have characters, Sky and love are annoying to most people and forced because two blondes acting like whores is hardly convincing. People don't buy it therefore they can't get behind it. Uhm... since when do you speak for 'most people?' In spite of you being convinced that 'people' can't get behind it these are two very popular new characters. Two weeks ago their match with Tracy and Jackie Moore was highest rated segment of the episode.
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Post by rzombie1988 on Dec 22, 2007 22:11:17 GMT -5
The bad storylines include people jumping from face to heel every show This is something a lot of people say about TNA, but nobody has ever been able to back up. The last 'turn' was Christian Cage in the past few weeks. He was a heel for a year and a half. Before that the most recent turn was Kurt Angle way back at Slammiversary in June. And there was Team 3D turning heel in July -- six months ago. Who else has had a face/heel turn in 2007? Lance Hoyt, Scott Steiner and Kaz. Wow that's practically the entire roster! And the turns are very slow. They NEVER come out of nowhere. Abyss and Kaz took months. Ms. Brooks has been turning face forever. Kevin Nash has been switching between face and heel like crazy. He was with the MCMG, then with Kurt, switched somewhere around there, then switched back to whatever he is now. Angle was notorious for also doing this. LAX has also switched, though no one has ever stated why or how. Chris Harris and Joe are both currently switching? I can't honestly keep track. Joe's technically been a heel for the last two weeks, and I have no clue what Harris is a supposed to be. He's supposed to be a whining heel now too I guess, but he's never actually done anything to prove that he was a heel besides whining. Joe's whining too but is supposed to be a face still? According to TNA's booking sheet(The circulated one), Roxxi Leaveau is a face coming out with VKM, then is suddenly a heel in her match. How is that possible? I never stated that the whole roster did. That was you. And the turns do come out of nowhere, look at Angle and Leaveau as examples.
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Dec 22, 2007 23:10:06 GMT -5
Eh, Nash has transcended being a face or a heel. He's more the drunk uncle who tells bad jokes* to anyone who will listen.
*Bad for the TV characters, but hilarious for the viewers at home.
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Post by drjayphd (feat. Pitbull) on Dec 22, 2007 23:41:40 GMT -5
-When did Scott Steiner turn face? How? (This guy shaking hands with fans just doesn't look right - and could get ugly with his past history.) Steiner was turned faced do to being paired back up with his brother, nostalgia always gets over with the fans...plus when ya have to choose, wouldn't you want Team 3D as the heels? It's what they do best after all... Also, it might've had something to do with Scotty's throat getting BAH GAWD BROKEN IN HALF.
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Post by thestinger on Dec 22, 2007 23:51:42 GMT -5
Kevin Nash has been switching between face and heel like crazy. He was with the MCMG, then with Kurt, switched somewhere around there, then switched back to whatever he is now. Angle was notorious for also doing this. Nash is a tweener. He doesn't ever change tactics or behavior. Angle was a face until Slammiversary although Lockdown was the start of his heel turn. LAX has also switched, though no one has ever stated why or how. The how and why are pretty simple. A year ago LAX started feuding with 3D except the fans cheered wildly for LAX and booed 3D. About six months ago TNA basically threw in the towel and started booking 3D as heels and LAX as faces. Most TNA fans hate 3D. According to TNA's booking sheet(The circulated one), Roxxi Leaveau is a face coming out with VKM, then is suddenly a heel in her match. How is that possible? I think you're mistaken about that. She's a heel, and the circulated thing said so. And the turns do come out of nowhere, look at Angle and Leaveau as examples. Leavaux hasn't turned, so I have absolutely no idea why you think she's a face and the Angle thing didn't come out of nowhere. Since weeks before Lockdown he was fighting at Sting, Rhino and Joe for not trusting him to find a partner for the Lockdown main event. After Lockdown he complained about having his integrity questioned until he completed his turn after winning King of the Mountain. TNA turns are rare and they NEVER come out of nowhere.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2007 23:58:22 GMT -5
I'm going to put it this way: UFC is to MMA as WWE is to pro wrestling. The mass-market sees it this way, and for the most part they are right. TNA, ROH and the like just aren't going to break out as people see professional wrestling as a collective whole as WWE. This guy makes the most sense out of anybody, including myself.
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Post by capnsteve on Dec 23, 2007 2:38:28 GMT -5
I think TNA needs to take a serious look at their financial situation. There are plenty of other shows that make a profit with lower ratings and no PPVs, so why can't they?
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JMA
Hank Scorpio
Down With Capitalism!
Posts: 6,880
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Post by JMA on Dec 23, 2007 3:28:48 GMT -5
In regards to identity, TNA needs to stop trying to mix Memphis style "rasslin'" with Crash TV--it doesn't work.
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greate
Mephisto
Swearenger is the man
Posts: 698
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Post by greate on Dec 23, 2007 4:21:20 GMT -5
Uhm... since when do you speak for 'most people?' In spite of you being convinced that 'people' can't get behind it these are two very popular new characters.
Two weeks ago their match with Tracy and Jackie Moore was highest rated segment of the episode.
I simply responded to Andrew is Good who basicly said that Love and Sky are ok because they have characters, i got a little out of context though when i claimed that they aren't popular but i simply meant that just because they show "color" it might not be a "good color". People hardly get behind real gimmicks these days or get bored with them in a short time span because they're usually silly and get old pretty quick due to large amount of exposure. You could say that Undertaker is a succesful "gimmick" but he was also a strong character who won a lot of matches not to mention Undertaker had tremendous amount of talent to go along with it. Also something worth noticing is how Love and Sky get booed alot in their matches even though they're supposed to be getting(according to my knowledge) positive reaction, one can argue though that any reaction is better than no reaction. In my opinion, the duo is really cheesy and annoying to watch on TV except when they put the show on cus they sure can wrestle.
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Post by thestinger on Dec 23, 2007 6:15:35 GMT -5
Also something worth noticing is how Love and Sky get booed alot in their matches even though they're supposed to be getting(according to my knowledge) positive reaction, They don't get booed at all. The crowd pops for them. I was at the the Impact Zone for the episode that aired last week and they're very over. Just hanging out at this board every couple of days it's obvious they're very popular. Go to the best looking TNA knockout thread if you don't believe me. In my opinion, the duo is really cheesy and annoying to watch on TV except when they put the show on cus they sure can wrestle. It's a successful gimmick that in your opinion is annoying. That's fine. You don't have to like them just because they are extremely over as babyfaces. I believe RD hates the Undertaker gimmick, but he doesn't try to claim that fans dislike it. He acknowledges that it works, but he doesn't understand why. For the record I consider the gimmick 'Goldust' to be the worst gimmick of all time, in my opinion. That doesn't change the fact that a majority of fans found it entertaining. That character was an unqualified success, even though I will never understand why.
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