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Post by Hulk With A Mustache on Mar 3, 2009 14:16:38 GMT -5
He, too, seems to miss the point, so there's a pattern here. Those who read the comic know what's going on, those who didn't don't (Lane even admits he wasn't sure whether anyone other than Dr. Manhattan had any powers or not). And while the end leaves you guessing that he gets the point that it's a deconstruction, he doesn't seem to care much about it. Does this infer that only people who've read the book are the only ones able to enjoy it? Or rather Snyder hasn't made a movie that's accessible? Furthermore, does its inaccessibility truly make it equivalent to the seemingly subversive quality of the material? Or that in his translation (if not outright transcription) from page to screen the politics of the film were even lost on the director? I've seen the "these people miss the point" argument volleyed against many of the negative reviews (that, granted, were a bit more snide and dismissive than they should have been, even though I enjoy those kinds of reviews). I just don't really follow the point that some people "get it" because they've read the book and some people "don't" when they haven't, when we're judging a movie first, then a movie that's an adaptation second (or, that's how I go about looking at adaptations anyway). I will fully admit that I have not read the book, although I've been aware of existence for many years, and plan, to some degree, on going into Watchmen "blind," in some respects. I hope I can be as unbiased as possible, although I have a pretty good idea how I will react to the movie... I could be wrong though, and can admit as such. I liked Dawn of the Dead and found 300 to be a bore, so Snyder is 1 for 1, one good movie, one bad movie. We'll see Friday, I suppose! Good point. Maybe Snyder didn't do such a good job of making the film accessible to those who aren't familiar with the project. I should also point that "Watchmen" has been described as unflimmable for over 20 years. Hell, Alan Moore has said that he wrote it that way because he wanted to show off things that a comic book/graphic novel could do that movies and TV couldn't. So, maybe you could have had Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, and Francis Ford Coppola making this film and it still wouldn't be good. Or, it could be a combination of both. Who knows? I'll just have to see for myself.
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Post by Rorschach on Mar 3, 2009 14:57:13 GMT -5
I think it's something else entirely, folks: I think it's these same critics who just absolutely creamed a river for THE DARK KNIGHT having trouble, serious trouble, digesting something as complex, layered, and non-traditional as WATCHMEN. They need not have read the book, though that will help immensely....they just have no grasp of the complexities of this material. They want it to be "Hero A fights Villains B and C and D and has Personal Problem X to overcome, thus equaling the desired, ride-into-the-sunset ending that we want" formula. It doesn't do that, so they give it three dismissive wank gestures, write up a scathing review, and call it a day.
Bottom line is, they've been so trained by FANTASTIC f***UP FOUR, SPIDER=MAN, XMEN, BATMAN BEGINS and even THE DARK KNIGHT as to what to expect out of a comic book film, that when something like WATCHMEN comes around, they don't know WHAT to do with it.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 3, 2009 16:28:23 GMT -5
You know, I really do have to wonder if I really need to read the novel to get the movie. I mean, wasn't this movie gonna be as true a representation of the novel as possible? Doesn't it go against that belief?
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erisi236
Fry's dog Seymour
... enjoys the rich, smooth taste of Camels.
Not good! Not good! Not good!
Posts: 21,904
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Post by erisi236 on Mar 3, 2009 19:40:53 GMT -5
Been watching that Watchmen motion comic recently to get psyched for the flick, and wow, is it cool or what. How the Hell do they get the comics to move around like that, it's so weird.
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Mar 3, 2009 19:54:10 GMT -5
Good point. Maybe Snyder didn't do such a good job of making the film accessible to those who aren't familiar with the project. I should also point that "Watchmen" has been described as unflimmable for over 20 years. Hell, Alan Moore has said that he wrote it that way because he wanted to show off things that a comic book/graphic novel could do that movies and TV couldn't. So, maybe you could have had Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, and Francis Ford Coppola making this film and it still wouldn't be good. Or, it could be a combination of both. Who knows? I'll just have to see for myself. That's what I think. The comic is too dense to be made into a movie, which requires more breathing room. I think Snyder tried to keep it too close to the comic, which makes it very difficult viewing. Someone who's read the comic, could probably understand the flow, complain about what hasn't been added and such, but things like Rorschach's masks comment move by too fast.
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Post by Alucard on Mar 3, 2009 21:05:51 GMT -5
Quick question, and I swear I've asked this before...but, I need a reminder.
WHAT is the name of that song they used in the first trailer, had no lyrics and had a sort of electronic sound to it. imdb told me it was "The Grid" by Philip Glass but I listened to that and it doesn't sound right at all. I can tell it's the same, but it doesn't sound like the same version used for Watchmen. What gives?
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Post by Silent Brad on Mar 3, 2009 21:21:33 GMT -5
Quick question, and I swear I've asked this before...but, I need a reminder. WHAT is the name of that song they used in the first trailer, had no lyrics and had a sort of electronic sound to it. imdb told me it was "The Grid" by Philip Glass but I listened to that and it doesn't sound right at all. I can tell it's the same, but it doesn't sound like the same version used for Watchmen. What gives? The song used for the first trailer was The Beginning is the End is the Beginning by Smashing Pumpkins. Doesn't sound like what you're describing though.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 3, 2009 21:35:04 GMT -5
Quick question, and I swear I've asked this before...but, I need a reminder. WHAT is the name of that song they used in the first trailer, had no lyrics and had a sort of electronic sound to it. imdb told me it was "The Grid" by Philip Glass but I listened to that and it doesn't sound right at all. I can tell it's the same, but it doesn't sound like the same version used for Watchmen. What gives? The song used for the first trailer was The Beginning is the End is the Beginning by Smashing Pumpkins. Doesn't sound like what you're describing though. I think he means the second. There are two songs by Glass there,Prophecies and Pruitt Igoe. check those.
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Post by Killah Ray on Mar 3, 2009 21:36:11 GMT -5
I really don't know anything about the subject matter although the trailers look pretty good to me...I hope that I won't get dissapointed just because I don't know the subject matter that well....
The main thing I'm going off of is that they said the director pretty much followed the novel almost verbatim although he did skip and change some things that were important.
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Post by Alucard on Mar 3, 2009 21:37:13 GMT -5
Quick question, and I swear I've asked this before...but, I need a reminder. WHAT is the name of that song they used in the first trailer, had no lyrics and had a sort of electronic sound to it. imdb told me it was "The Grid" by Philip Glass but I listened to that and it doesn't sound right at all. I can tell it's the same, but it doesn't sound like the same version used for Watchmen. What gives? The song used for the first trailer was The Beginning is the End is the Beginning by Smashing Pumpkins. Doesn't sound like what you're describing though. Nooo, that one I know. By The Smashing Pumpkins. But there's been another song used, it's just an instrumental piece. I wanna say that's it, but it still sounds kinda weird, maybe it's just my TV or they've remixed it for the trailer.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 3, 2009 21:40:41 GMT -5
Okay, Void. After some checking, if you're talking about the second trailer....
The music in the beginning with the Comedian is "Prophecies", and the music after that and before the lyrics is "Pruitt Igoe".
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Post by Alucard on Mar 3, 2009 21:42:42 GMT -5
The song used for the first trailer was The Beginning is the End is the Beginning by Smashing Pumpkins. Doesn't sound like what you're describing though. I think he means the second. There are two songs by Glass there,Prophecies and Pruitt Igoe. check those. It's Pruitt Igoe! Thank you so much, that was gonna drive me nuts.
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Post by Alucard on Mar 3, 2009 21:51:18 GMT -5
Okay, Void. After some checking, if you're talking about the second trailer.... The music in the beginning with the Comedian is "Prophecies", and the music after that and before the lyrics is "Pruitt Igoe". Sweet. I love that trailer. Hyped as hell for the movie, believe it or not I have a date to go see it. I'm just as surprised as the rest of you.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 3, 2009 21:51:46 GMT -5
I think it's something else entirely, folks: I think it's these same critics who just absolutely creamed a river for THE DARK KNIGHT having trouble, serious trouble, digesting something as complex, layered, and non-traditional as WATCHMEN. They need not have read the book, though that will help immensely....they just have no grasp of the complexities of this material. They want it to be "Hero A fights Villains B and C and D and has Personal Problem X to overcome, thus equaling the desired, ride-into-the-sunset ending that we want" formula. It doesn't do that, so they give it three dismissive wank gestures, write up a scathing review, and call it a day. Bottom line is, they've been so trained by FANTASTIC snorkUP FOUR, SPIDER=MAN, XMEN, BATMAN BEGINS and even THE DARK KNIGHT as to what to expect out of a comic book film, that when something like WATCHMEN comes around, they don't know WHAT to do with it. This is exactly what I was expecting, too. As a fan of comics, it always offends me when movie critics pan comic book movies. They don't know jack about the source material, so they have no basis to form an opinion about the movie. It sounds like they dislike Watchmen for not being some formulaic "comic book movie", and that's just ridiculous. Argh. I could rant all day about the mainstream and how they have no right to judge or have opinions about OUR movies. When I say "OUR" I mean comic book fans. Batman is ours, X-Men is ours, Watchmen is ours. The only people who can have a valid opinion on any of these films are people who know the source.
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Mar 3, 2009 22:14:41 GMT -5
It seems to me that these reviewers, it's not that they don't get the point of the movie, its that they get it and they don't want it. Which, honestly, the story is quite depressing if you really think about it. Yeah, its a deconstruction of escapist fantasy fiction...but when your world feels like its deconstructing itself, is it really a bad thing to long for unfettered escapist fantasy?
They saw the movie and didn't like it. That's not a crime. I saw Blair Witch Project and hated it, but am I not allowed my opinion because I didn't go to the movie's website, or I didn't watch the ancilliary faux documentary on Sci-Fi Channel? I don't understand why "our" opinions are the only valid ones. Yeah, "they" might not be all that up on the material, but is it not possible that we are a little TOO up on it? We get all the subtle little nuances because we've already examined every little detail of the comics, but subtle little nuances do not a great film make. A great film is a great film, regardless of "where" it comes from, and likewise for a bad film.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 3, 2009 23:32:31 GMT -5
I'm cautiously optimistic.. but I can absolutely see why people wouldn't like it, whether they 'got it' or not. Granted I'm one of the ones that said that first reviewer didn't seem to know what he's looking at, and I'll stand by that, but I'll concede that you may 'get the point' and just not like it- book or movie really.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 4, 2009 0:01:44 GMT -5
It seems to me that these reviewers, it's not that they don't get the point of the movie, its that they get it and they don't want it. Which, honestly, the story is quite depressing if you really think about it. Yeah, its a deconstruction of escapist fantasy fiction...but when your world feels like its deconstructing itself, is it really a bad thing to long for unfettered escapist fantasy? They saw the movie and didn't like it. That's not a crime. I saw Blair Witch Project and hated it, but am I not allowed my opinion because I didn't go to the movie's website, or I didn't watch the ancilliary faux documentary on Sci-Fi Channel? I don't understand why "our" opinions are the only valid ones. Yeah, "they" might not be all that up on the material, but is it not possible that we are a little TOO up on it? We get all the subtle little nuances because we've already examined every little detail of the comics, but subtle little nuances do not a great film make. A great film is a great film, regardless of "where" it comes from, and likewise for a bad film. What can I say? I'm a comic book elitist. When it comes to comic book movies, I feel that the opinions of the comic book fans are the only valid opinions because the outsiders don't know a damn thing about what they're watching. They're just morons who will eat up any action movie with costumes that Hollywood feeds them. I don't care how unpopular that opinion makes me, that's how I feel. They can tell me I'm wrong when they spend as much of their money and time on comics and the characters from them as I have.
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Post by Solid Stryk-Dizzle on Mar 4, 2009 1:01:21 GMT -5
This movie is going to be panned by everyone. Trust me. Everyone is holding it up to the Dark Knight "standard" and it's only going to suffer because of it.
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Post by Rorschach on Mar 4, 2009 1:15:09 GMT -5
This movie is going to be panned by everyone. Trust me. Everyone is holding it up to the Dark Knight "standard" and it's only going to suffer because of it. I think the trailers are partly to blame for that. *Hrrm* I am just waiting for everyone to dress up as Rorschach this year. BASTARDS! Have some balls (and show em off!) and go as Manhattan instead!
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Post by Big DSR Energy on Mar 4, 2009 2:03:31 GMT -5
Well, 'Schach, if my brother hadn't mocked my moustache, I would totally dress up as the Comedian.
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