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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2010 13:51:12 GMT -5
There needs to be a legit number two before there's a legit number 3. How is TNA not the obvious number 2? Oh, TNA is number 2 alright.
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Post by poi zen rana on Dec 20, 2010 15:16:27 GMT -5
How is TNA not the obvious number 2? Key word: "legit" TNA is so far in second place, I'd go as far as to say that New Japan is more of a threat to WWE than TNA. You are looking at it wrong, WWE isn't a legit number one.
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Post by American Dragon on Dec 20, 2010 15:59:09 GMT -5
I think Ring of Honor will always have that indy promotion stigma, no matter how much they try to shake it with the television shows and iPPV's. I'm not saying they can never be a legit number three, but I still, and probably always will look at them as an indy promotion, as much as I love Ring of Honor.
It's strangle to think that 4 or 5 years into it's existence, ECW was on WWF television, and in the 8 years Ring of Honor has been around, all it ever got was one lousy "See me at Ring Uh Ahna" by Matt Hardy on Raw in 2005. WWE played a huge part in ECW becoming the number 3 promotion, which I think a lot of people fail to realize. I wasn't a fan back then, but before '96/'97, It seemed like ECW was just another local indy promotion, and after their spots on WWF Raw, they started to pick up steam and people started to take notice of them, on a national level, at least.
But Ring of Honor is just a wrestling-based promotion, whereas ECW was offering something different (hardcore wrestling), I guess it was just a matter of being in the right place at the right time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2010 16:01:49 GMT -5
In all fairness - ROH is as far away from TNA as TNA is from WWE.
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Post by Manute Bol on Dec 20, 2010 16:11:34 GMT -5
That's odd. I began last year April to watch ROH because they scored a TV deal and that was the breaking point for me as far as the current *3 goes. I mean, they do shows nationally, they have a TV deal, they do PPVs (albeit Internet, of course), their talent is brought up from time to time to the current big two, they have a rabid fanbase. What more do they need to be considered the current No. 3 promotion? My current train of thought is that now WWE, TNA and ROH are to the late 2000s what WWF, WCW and ECW were in the late 90s. But I would be interested if someone could explain to me why that is not so. I mean, was the original ECW really that much bigger in the late 90s than ROH is now? It's east to compare the trio of WWE/TNA/ROH to WWE/WCW/ECW, but in no way are they on the same level. I mean just look at the huge difference between WCW and TNA. In no way, shape or form has TNA even been close to the business WCW did. The same goes for ROH and ECW. Yes ROH is number three in comparison to the rest of the indies, but they're not on the level ECW was by a long shot. Not in terms of revenue, attendance, or even mainstream recognition. ROH on their best day is probably not even on the level of ECW on their worst day.
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Post by the5thhorseman on Dec 20, 2010 16:18:35 GMT -5
If ROH was on a cable network people actually got they would probably surpass TNA. I do not agree with that at all. ROH would need some serious increase in production to look better on TV than TNA. No disrespect to ROH but they are as far from TNA as TNA is from WWE. As far as TNA being a large indy promotion, NO. You do not have a national TV deal, run PPV every month, have merch, a huge tape library and DVD production run as an Indy Fed. So NO TNA is nowhere near Indy status. If a wrestling promotion runs PPV's every month and no one buys them do they really happen? Seriously though ROH has their own library of tapes and if they did get a big time tv deal they could afford to run more ppvs and could start to build a national audience that might want to buy ROH merch. TNA is not a major corporation like WWE. They cut corners wherever it is possible and if Spike TV cancelled Impact and no one picked it up would they even stay in business?
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Post by i.Sarita.com on Dec 20, 2010 16:25:26 GMT -5
How is TNA not the obvious number 2? Key word: "legit" TNA is so far in second place, I'd go as far as to say that New Japan is more of a threat to WWE than TNA. Threat? What does that even mean? TNA has a national TV deal, has people that the casual fan has probably heard of or remember, has regular PPVs, merchandise in major store chains, etc. New Japan has no real presence here in the US. Legit or not, nobody really cares besides fans of Japanese wrestling...and I doubt that the type of casual fan who watches WWE or even TNA is going to give two shits about trying to follow some Japanese company with a bunch of guys they've never heard of.
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Post by poi zen rana on Dec 20, 2010 16:46:28 GMT -5
if Spike TV cancelled Impact and no one picked it up would they even stay in business? if ROH had no ring where would they even wrestle?
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Post by corndog on Dec 20, 2010 16:47:16 GMT -5
That's odd. I began last year April to watch ROH because they scored a TV deal and that was the breaking point for me as far as the current *3 goes. I mean, they do shows nationally, they have a TV deal, they do PPVs (albeit Internet, of course), their talent is brought up from time to time to the current big two, they have a rabid fanbase. What more do they need to be considered the current No. 3 promotion? My current train of thought is that now WWE, TNA and ROH are to the late 2000s what WWF, WCW and ECW were in the late 90s. But I would be interested if someone could explain to me why that is not so. I mean, was the original ECW really that much bigger in the late 90s than ROH is now? It's east to compare the trio of WWE/TNA/ROH to WWE/WCW/ECW, but in no way are they on the same level. I mean just look at the huge difference between WCW and TNA. In no way, shape or form has TNA even been close to the business WCW did. The same goes for ROH and ECW. Yes ROH is number three in comparison to the rest of the indies, but they're not on the level ECW was by a long shot. Not in terms of revenue, attendance, or even mainstream recognition. ROH on their best day is probably not even on the level of ECW on their worst day. I would agree TNA is not nearly what WCW was and ROH isn't as big as ECW was in the late 90s. But TNA and ROH are the #2 and #3 US wrestling companies currently. Heck in alot of areas TNA isn't even what ECW was during the 90s. ECW had more name recognation, outdrew TNA for live events, had much better ppv numbers and had similar television ratings. ROH is clearly behind TNA, atleast with merchandising, ppv and television. But last time I checked ROH is doing something neither company was able to do, draw profits.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2010 17:25:32 GMT -5
Though a lot of people rank "success" based on which TV network a promotion is on, consider this.
ROH and PWG are more profitable than TNA.
So TNA's number 2?
They've lost millions.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2010 17:31:15 GMT -5
Key word: "legit" TNA is so far in second place, I'd go as far as to say that New Japan is more of a threat to WWE than TNA. Threat? What does that even mean? TNA has a national TV deal, has people that the casual fan has probably heard of or remember, has regular PPVs, merchandise in major store chains, etc. I've never seen TNA merchandise in major store chains outside of an occasional DVD. I live on the West coast though and TNA doesn't really visit anything west of the rockies. I guess that's why I think they're a distant second. They're a regional promotion at best - with a national TV deal. Is the only real difference between ROH and TNA that TNA is on a more accessible channel? Possibly, but the real issue is that if you can't tour in the same areas your competition does, then you're not a close second. You have to be able to show up to the game to even place 2nd.
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Post by i.Sarita.com on Dec 20, 2010 17:37:34 GMT -5
Threat? What does that even mean? TNA has a national TV deal, has people that the casual fan has probably heard of or remember, has regular PPVs, merchandise in major store chains, etc. I've never seen TNA merchandise in major store chains outside of an occasional DVD. I live on the West coast though and TNA doesn't really visit anything west of the rockies. I guess that's why I think they're a distant second. They're a regional promotion at best - with a national TV deal. Is the only real difference between ROH and TNA that TNA is on a more accessible channel? Possibly, but the real issue is that if you can't tour in the same areas your competition does, then you're not a close second. You have to be able to show up to the game to even place 2nd. They sell TNA figures and belts at Wal-Mart and Toys R' Us around here (Indiana).
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ICBM
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Post by ICBM on Dec 21, 2010 0:10:46 GMT -5
Damn straight. ROH, up to 2009, turned a profit each year. Allow me to play the Eric Bischoff card; we will likely never know if TNA has or has not.
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ICBM
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Post by ICBM on Dec 21, 2010 0:26:55 GMT -5
Ok, thanx.
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Post by Jacob Lee on Dec 21, 2010 2:39:24 GMT -5
The comparison isn't really fair because everything is about money. TNA is only number two because they can be propped up by an energy company. Case closed. In the long run ROH has made more stars and given more people the ability to get over with a wider audience.
That's why people still viewed CM Punk's "debut" on ECW as him being an ROH guy. Nobody cared that he'd been in TNA before.
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Post by Bald Bull on Dec 21, 2010 2:55:12 GMT -5
Key word: "legit" TNA is so far in second place, I'd go as far as to say that New Japan is more of a threat to WWE than TNA. Threat? What does that even mean? TNA has a national TV deal, has people that the casual fan has probably heard of or remember, has regular PPVs, merchandise in major store chains, etc. New Japan has no real presence here in the US. Legit or not, nobody really cares besides fans of Japanese wrestling...and I doubt that the type of casual fan who watches WWE or even TNA is going to give two s***s about trying to follow some Japanese company with a bunch of guys they've never heard of. What is legit, is New Japan draws will have more paid attendance at Wrestle Kingdom on the 4th than TNA will have drawn in their history. The comparison isn't really fair because everything is about money. TNA is only number two because they can be propped up by an energy company. Case closed. In the long run ROH has made more stars and given more people the ability to get over with a wider audience. That's why people still viewed CM Punk's "debut" on ECW as him being an ROH guy. Nobody cared that he'd been in TNA before. Because he was in TNA in 2002, when nobody watched TNA. But was in ROH from 2003-being signed by WWE. If Homicide got signed by WWE tomorrow the headlines on your dirt sheet wouldn't read "WWE signs former ROH Champion" And to the OP: Will ROH ever be a legitimate number 3 indy again? They've fallen off.
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ICBM
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Post by ICBM on Dec 21, 2010 7:34:59 GMT -5
"What is legit, is New Japan draws will have more paid attendance at Wrestle Kingdom on the 4th than TNA will have drawn in their history."
No casual fans have any idea what new Japan is since TNA is on TV in North America on a channel that is carried on more cable systems, I will judge that TNA's reach in North America(not the captured audience) is greater than NJPW. In North America the largest market for professional wrestling
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Post by poi zen rana on Dec 21, 2010 9:57:36 GMT -5
That's why people still viewed CM Punk's "debut" on ECW as him being an ROH guy. Nobody cared that he'd been in TNA before. just because WWE fans love to point out ex WWE wrestlers in TNA without acknowledging the WWE wrestlers who were in TNA first does not mean that TNA is not the second most recognizable company in the country.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2010 20:27:01 GMT -5
And to the OP: Will ROH ever be a legitimate number 3 indy again? They've fallen off. They just did their biggest number of iPPV buys in company history for Final Battle, and sold out the Manhattan Center again. Their attendances are also up in Chicago, Toronto, and the Boston area. They're heading back to Charlotte and Richmond in January, markets which were opened up over the past year. ROH is about to head into their third year of doing weekly television for HDNet, which is pure profit for them since HDNet pays for everything pertaining to the show. It's a free advertisement of all upcoming events and iPPVs. How exactly have they "fallen off?" If anything, they are stronger than they've ever been at the moment.
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Post by Bald Bull on Dec 21, 2010 20:55:13 GMT -5
And to the OP: Will ROH ever be a legitimate number 3 indy again? They've fallen off. They just did their biggest number of iPPV buys in company history for Final Battle, and sold out the Manhattan Center again. Their attendances are also up in Chicago, Toronto, and the Boston area. They're heading back to Charlotte and Richmond in January, markets which were opened up over the past year. ROH is about to head into their third year of doing weekly television for HDNet, which is pure profit for them since HDNet pays for everything pertaining to the show. It's a free advertisement of all upcoming events and iPPVs. How exactly have they "fallen off?" If anything, they are stronger than they've ever been at the moment. Are we talking about the same ROH? I'm talking about the ROH that hasn't turned an annual profit since Gabe left and the one that papers the Arena. You've fallen off when you have to paper the Arena because people in Philly go to wrestling just because it's there. You've gotta do something heinous to turn them away.
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