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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on May 23, 2011 14:46:47 GMT -5
On is that the DC Universe will restart with iconic versions of the characters, but without the 70 or so years of backstory. Wasn't that the entire point of the first Crisis? Y'know, I know I'm going to get slammed for towing company lines and such, but Marvel, even with the ocassional continuity gaffes, hasn't had to resort to this over and over. Nothing in DC has made sense since Zero Hour. the worst thing about it, IMO is how unneeded it is. it's easy to fix a few continuity gaffes here and there. and honestly, constantly rebooting the characters and junking past stories out of some self-centered "well this isn't what it was when I was a kid" bias just makes it harder to get new readers. in a couple years' time a rebooted character will have grown and changed anyway, so trying to stick to some frozen-in-time status quo (especially an outdated one from over 30 years ago) is just stupid. really, is there ANYONE who, in this day and age, would find Lois and Superman not being married and going back to the "will they won't they?" stories of the 70s (just an example) to be at all compelling? it's tired, it's old, we've seen it already. is it really necessary to junk all the awesome work that Geoff Johns has done on Green Lantern over the last few years because "it's too complicated"? if anything, the rainbow corps thing got a few of my friends interested, and they never read GL before. and if so, what happens to books like Secret Six? that book certainly isn't "Iconic" and there's nothing to reboot it to, but if you're going to implode the continuity again that still affects things. did they learn nothing from the changes the original crisis made that pretty much invalidated Legion of Superheroes and Hawkman?
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 23, 2011 14:50:40 GMT -5
On is that the DC Universe will restart with iconic versions of the characters, but without the 70 or so years of backstory. Wasn't that the entire point of the first Crisis? Y'know, I know I'm going to get slammed for towing company lines and such, but Marvel, even with the ocassional continuity gaffes, hasn't had to resort to this over and over. Nothing in DC has made sense since Zero Hour. It's the fact that someone high up in DC has a REAL hard on for the Silver Age, for whatever reason. Say what you will about Marvel(and lord knows I've said a lot), at least their stuff USUALLY moves them forward, not backward, in some measurable way, even if it's not a "long term effect".
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Thaal Sinestro
Hank Scorpio
In Brightest Night, In Blackest Day. Etc.
Posts: 5,012
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Post by Thaal Sinestro on May 23, 2011 14:59:43 GMT -5
Well Geoff Johns probably.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 23, 2011 15:04:13 GMT -5
Well Geoff Johns probably. I just don't get it. The Silver age just doesn't translate well to modern times.
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Post by Red Impact on May 23, 2011 15:05:55 GMT -5
Wasn't that the entire point of the first Crisis? Y'know, I know I'm going to get slammed for towing company lines and such, but Marvel, even with the ocassional continuity gaffes, hasn't had to resort to this over and over. Nothing in DC has made sense since Zero Hour. It's the fact that someone high up in DC has a REAL hard on for the Silver Age, for whatever reason. Say what you will about Marvel(and lord knows I've said a lot), at least their stuff USUALLY moves them forward, not backward, in some measurable way, even if it's not a "long term effect". I don't think Marvel's events move them forward... it's just that DC's moves them back. Relaunches and reboots and removing new blood for legacy characters, etc. Marvel goes back to the status quo, but they don't reset everything as much as just let it be convoluted.
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Thaal Sinestro
Hank Scorpio
In Brightest Night, In Blackest Day. Etc.
Posts: 5,012
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Post by Thaal Sinestro on May 23, 2011 15:10:02 GMT -5
Well Geoff Johns probably. I just don't get it. The Silver age just doesn't translate well to modern times. I'm not a long time reader. I only recently got into these things in about 2009 right when Blackest Night was starting up. I have no problems with enjoying things well maybe Swamp Thing was a bit much but still.
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Post by Michael Coello on May 23, 2011 15:26:31 GMT -5
Well Geoff Johns probably. I just don't get it. The Silver age just doesn't translate well to modern times. 'The Brave and the Bold' says hi. Yeah, it's mostly a kid's title, but come on....
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
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Post by Legion on May 23, 2011 15:28:09 GMT -5
It's the fact that someone high up in DC has a REAL hard on for the Silver Age, for whatever reason. Say what you will about Marvel(and lord knows I've said a lot), at least their stuff USUALLY moves them forward, not backward, in some measurable way, even if it's not a "long term effect". I don't think Marvel's events move them forward... it's just that DC's moves them back. Relaunches and reboots and removing new blood for legacy characters, etc. Marvel goes back to the status quo, but they don't reset everything as much as just let it be convoluted. I think Marvel's events do move them forward, but in smaller ways than perhaps they should. From a Marvel event you are likely to get a character or two who are really moved forward, even if the universe itself isnt shifted that much. An example would be something like Annihilation. Annhilation, over in the cosmic side of the Marvel would really pushed the characters of Nova and Starlord, it had some semi lasting political changes, but generally the status quo was returned and even the major villain was reborn. Civil War and Secret Invasion gave us the rise of Norman Osborne, and imo, some of Marvel's best work in years under the Dark Reign banner. DC on the other hand, I agree. They move backwards and they have ever since Hal returned and Parallax was retconned into a bug. No new characters are born out of and pushed from events, just old big ones who have fallen given yet another chance, in some cases at the expense of newer and better characters (yeah, I'm still sore that Captain Boomerang Jr was killed off and that Pied Piper has just vanished despite being important previously, both as a villain and with James Jesse (whose death, again, I mourne) as a pseudo reformer)). On the plus side, a book like Secret Six appears to have no write up or promotion in regards a reset, so I'm hoping it'll be left alone and only the big hero books will get reset.
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Post by Red Impact on May 23, 2011 16:26:41 GMT -5
I don't think Marvel's events move them forward... it's just that DC's moves them back. Relaunches and reboots and removing new blood for legacy characters, etc. Marvel goes back to the status quo, but they don't reset everything as much as just let it be convoluted. I think Marvel's events do move them forward, but in smaller ways than perhaps they should. From a Marvel event you are likely to get a character or two who are really moved forward, even if the universe itself isnt shifted that much. An example would be something like Annihilation. Annhilation, over in the cosmic side of the Marvel would really pushed the characters of Nova and Starlord, it had some semi lasting political changes, but generally the status quo was returned and even the major villain was reborn. Civil War and Secret Invasion gave us the rise of Norman Osborne, and imo, some of Marvel's best work in years under the Dark Reign banner. DC on the other hand, I agree. They move backwards and they have ever since Hal returned and Parallax was retconned into a bug. No new characters are born out of and pushed from events, just old big ones who have fallen given yet another chance, in some cases at the expense of newer and better characters (yeah, I'm still sore that Captain Boomerang Jr was killed off and that Pied Piper has just vanished despite being important previously, both as a villain and with James Jesse (whose death, again, I mourne) as a pseudo reformer)). On the plus side, a book like Secret Six appears to have no write up or promotion in regards a reset, so I'm hoping it'll be left alone and only the big hero books will get reset. I will say that Marvel does actually allow new characters and such, and some development, so yes, you are right. It's just that anything big is likely to be undone very quickly, so it's hard to actually believe there's progress being made. Like Xorn's story. That was an awesomely told story, but the necessity at the end of it was that Magneto would reveal himself as Xorn, then die. Marvel couldn't let that stand, so Magneto was "revived," it was revealed he wasn't Xorn, and a new and practically identical brother of Xorn was introduced. So, ultimately, the entire story introduced a character who they later depowered anyways. DC, on the other hand, writes like WWE, only their entertainers don't retire. Rarely does any new blood get focused over the legacy characters, and when they do it's usually so they can die or just take the place of a legacy. Then, they're likely to be killed off in a crossover to revive the legacy character ala Hawkwoman. So they both do have a bad tendency of crapping on their own stories, but I will agree that Marvel is willing to at least inch forward, even if they take two steps back for every one they go forward.
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
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Post by Legion on May 23, 2011 16:29:23 GMT -5
Ah, I think one difference there is that that was an X event.
X events never, ever have a proper and lasting effect on anything. Ever.
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Post by Red Impact on May 23, 2011 16:31:54 GMT -5
Ah, I think one difference there is that that was an X event. X events never, ever have a proper and lasting effect on anything. Ever. M-Day sort of did. Or, at the very least, everything hasn't returned to the status quo yet.
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Legion
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Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
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Post by Legion on May 23, 2011 16:36:14 GMT -5
M-Day wasn't an X event though. It concerned the mutants, but it was an Avengers event that featured them, more than a X event they featured in.
In my opinion anyway.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on May 23, 2011 16:49:58 GMT -5
All these different continuities, reboots, etc make it very intimidating to get involved with reading comics. Its why I stick to trades, which I generally treat as standalone stories whether or not they are meant to be.
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Post by Red Impact on May 23, 2011 16:54:45 GMT -5
Well, I think if affected the mutant universe by and large the most, even if the Avengers did play a big part. But yeah, it did include the Avengers.
Actually, I think I have the analogy. DC Universe is like WCW. They had one huge angle, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and spent much of the rest of their existence trying to recapture it unsuccessfully. They have some high points here and there, but whenever they try to do anything with their big names, it ends up trying to drag something in from that.
Marvel is like WWE Attitude Era. A lot of seemingly major things aren't going to have an impact, but eventually, something you don't expect will stick.
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Post by Red Impact on May 23, 2011 16:56:47 GMT -5
All these different continuities, reboots, etc make it very intimidating to get involved with reading comics. Its why I stick to trades, which I generally treat as standalone stories whether or not they are meant to be. Honestly, I think that's why Elseworld's got me into super hero books, and why I enjoy them more than most major events.
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Post by hossfan on May 23, 2011 17:03:12 GMT -5
On is that the DC Universe will restart with iconic versions of the characters, but without the 70 or so years of backstory. Wasn't that the entire point of the first Crisis? Y'know, I know I'm going to get slammed for towing company lines and such, but Marvel, even with the ocassional continuity gaffes, hasn't had to resort to this over and over. Nothing in DC has made sense since Zero Hour. Marvel might not have done a Crisis style event, but they've certainly gone back and retold character's origins and previous adventures quite often.
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 23,364
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Post by Legion on May 23, 2011 17:06:43 GMT -5
All these different continuities, reboots, etc make it very intimidating to get involved with reading comics. Its why I stick to trades, which I generally treat as standalone stories whether or not they are meant to be. I tend to stick to characters. True, occassionally a character will change (especially at DC), but if you can stick to trades as they follow one character, that's a great way to get into things And yes, I would agree on the WCW thing. Although one has to wonder if that means that DC is now TNA? I guess it fits. They are still trying to make characters from a long time ago important, while their storylines get more and more confusing and riddled with inconsistancies.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 23, 2011 17:50:32 GMT -5
Wasn't that the entire point of the first Crisis? Y'know, I know I'm going to get slammed for towing company lines and such, but Marvel, even with the ocassional continuity gaffes, hasn't had to resort to this over and over. Nothing in DC has made sense since Zero Hour. Marvel might not have done a Crisis style event, but they've certainly gone back and retold character's origins and previous adventures quite often. I may not be getting exactly what you mean here, so if I interpreted this wrong, please correct me, but Marvel's only really done that whole hog with the Ultimate Universe, and maybe the Noir universe(I'm not too deep into those books, so I don't know how accurate that is to say), and those are standalone universes as opposed to full reboots like DC does every decade or so.
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Post by s l i k on May 23, 2011 17:50:39 GMT -5
Maybe Batman will go back to spanking or threatening to spank people.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 23, 2011 17:52:52 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I know it's a well worn opinion, and I'm not exactly original for having it, but Silver Age Batman was freaking gay as the day is long. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just.....wow.
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