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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Aug 6, 2011 13:44:58 GMT -5
He's a face. Talking about giving the fans what they want. And he's playing the crowd now. Old Punk wouldn't have done the title thing with Cena. He would have left or attacked him. The "voice of the voiceless" stuff is his face persona. He's just not super nice, he's still CM Punk. I dunno. Punk's in a really ambiguous place now, I think. He's talking about giving the fans what they want, sure, but it's more in the vein of what HE thinks they want(and, to be fair, what a large chunk of the internet community wants), as opposed to openly pandering, like Cena does. I'm not gonna say he's full out heel, but he doesn't give off a face vibe to me, either.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Aug 6, 2011 13:46:45 GMT -5
He plays the crowd. Punk never did that as heel. Its that simple to me. Its not a matter of acting nice. Faces and heels have evolved way past that.
After RAW dark matches have Truth and Miz attacking Punk and Cena while they both fight them off and pose.
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Post by CrazySting on Aug 6, 2011 13:49:03 GMT -5
Dave Meltzer talking about Gail on the board recently:
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 6, 2011 13:53:55 GMT -5
The voice of the voiceless also berated fans who supported the company that he didn't like and didn't push them. Yeah, faces don't have to be goody two-shoes type, I'll argue that as much as anyone, but Punk's character, to me at least, still reeks of "say or do anything as long as it benefits me." Even his theme song just screams "I'm going to manipulate the situation to benefit me."
At best, I'd accept that he was a tweener, but I don't buy that he's a full-on face right now.
Faces and heels have evolved beyond the melodramatic extremes, which is exactly why the fact that he gets cheered and raises his title to the fans doesn't automatically make him a face.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 6, 2011 13:56:52 GMT -5
He's a face. Talking about giving the fans what they want. And he's playing the crowd now. Old Punk wouldn't have done the title thing with Cena. He would have left or attacked him. The "voice of the voiceless" stuff is his face persona. He's just not super nice, he's still CM Punk. I dunno. Punk's in a really ambiguous place now, I think. He's talking about giving the fans what they want, sure, but it's more in the vein of what HE thinks they want(and, to be fair, what a large chunk of the internet community wants), as opposed to openly pandering, like Cena does. I'm not gonna say he's full out heel, but he doesn't give off a face vibe to me, either. Cena just wants to entertain the crowd. As he is he entertains women and kids... and, ahem, some men with taste, and there's plenty of other stuff for the rest. If he turns there's a lot less for a significant portion of the audience. Punk is a sanctimonius preacher/cult leader type. If I like this it is good and you must like it too.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Aug 6, 2011 14:16:50 GMT -5
The voice of the voiceless also berated fans who supported the company that he didn't like and didn't push them. Yeah, faces don't have to be goody two-shoes type, I'll argue that as much as anyone, but Punk's character, to me at least, still reeks of "say or do anything as long as it benefits me." Even his theme song just screams "I'm going to manipulate the situation to benefit me." At best, I'd accept that he was a tweener, but I don't buy that he's a full-on face right now. Faces and heels have evolved beyond the melodramatic extremes, which is exactly why the fact that he gets cheered and raises his title to the fans doesn't automatically make him a face. If you are standing beside Cena posing after a dark match as the 'Send the fans home happy" moment, you are pretty much a face to me. He is a face to a portion of the audience, just like Cena is a face to only a portion of the audience.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 6, 2011 14:38:16 GMT -5
The voice of the voiceless also berated fans who supported the company that he didn't like and didn't push them. Yeah, faces don't have to be goody two-shoes type, I'll argue that as much as anyone, but Punk's character, to me at least, still reeks of "say or do anything as long as it benefits me." Even his theme song just screams "I'm going to manipulate the situation to benefit me." At best, I'd accept that he was a tweener, but I don't buy that he's a full-on face right now. Faces and heels have evolved beyond the melodramatic extremes, which is exactly why the fact that he gets cheered and raises his title to the fans doesn't automatically make him a face. If you are standing beside Cena posing after a dark match as the 'Send the fans home happy" moment, you are pretty much a face to me. He is a face to a portion of the audience, just like Cena is a face to only a portion of the audience. I don't think dark matches and house shows are relevant unless what happened is actually mentioned by the company, like a title change. Other than that, all sorts of strange and weird things have a possibility of happening. And again I'll say that having fans =/= being a face. Fans cheer for heels all the time, it doesn't make them faces. On screen, Punk's character is still heel to me, for the same reason mrjl said. Cena is only ever a heel to people who still go by the old notion that faces are supposed to be naive pushovers who are easily tricked and never can do anything even remotely questionable, which is an age left in the dust long ago.
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Altabane
Unicron
Burying People For Free
Posts: 3,155
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Post by Altabane on Aug 6, 2011 14:46:38 GMT -5
Dave Meltzer talking about Gail on the board recently: What's odd about that last part was that at that time in TNA, the Knockouts were the biggest draw.
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Post by funkyjesus on Aug 6, 2011 14:50:50 GMT -5
How in 2011, people can get less pay for a the same job based on sex is beyond me.
How in 2011, the people doing the most successful job on a pro wrestling tv show - drawing ratings - get the least pay with no legal back up to work in their favour just astounds me.
I hate double standards. Situations like this make all men by association look like creeps.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Aug 6, 2011 14:59:55 GMT -5
*opens thread, extremely worried* ...N..no more firings? Is it safe now?
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Krazee
Salacious Crumb
Posts: 71,547
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Post by Krazee on Aug 6, 2011 15:00:53 GMT -5
hmm i figured that more would be released by now,
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Aug 6, 2011 15:20:46 GMT -5
How in 2011, people can get less pay for a the same job based on sex is beyond me. How in 2011, the people doing the most successful job on a pro wrestling tv show - drawing ratings - get the least pay with no legal back up to work in their favour just astounds me. I hate double standards. Situations like this make all men by association look like creeps. sadly, this
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Lupin the Third
Patti Mayonnaise
I'm sorry.....I love you. *boot to the head*--3rd most culpable in the jixing of NXT, D'oh!
Join the Dark Order....
Posts: 36,402
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Post by Lupin the Third on Aug 6, 2011 15:22:17 GMT -5
*opens thread, extremely worried* ...N..no more firings? Is it safe now? Is it safe? Sorry, saw an opening I couldn't resist. ;D
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 6, 2011 15:30:10 GMT -5
How in 2011, people can get less pay for a the same job based on sex is beyond me. How in 2011, the people doing the most successful job on a pro wrestling tv show - drawing ratings - get the least pay with no legal back up to work in their favour just astounds me. I hate double standards. Situations like this make all men by association look like creeps. well, in the WWE's case their women's matches are always short and they don't end up wrestling the same number of matches.
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Tiger Maskooo
Samurai Cop
I cant hear you over the sound of how much im tiger masking
Posts: 2,384
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Post by Tiger Maskooo on Aug 6, 2011 16:16:23 GMT -5
He's a face. Talking about giving the fans what they want. And he's playing the crowd now. Old Punk wouldn't have done the title thing with Cena. He would have left or attacked him. The "voice of the voiceless" stuff is his face persona. He's just not super nice, he's still CM Punk. I dunno. Punk's in a really ambiguous place now, I think. He's talking about giving the fans what they want, sure, but it's more in the vein of what HE thinks they want(and, to be fair, what a large chunk of the internet community wants), as opposed to openly pandering, like Cena does. I'm not gonna say he's full out heel, but he doesn't give off a face vibe to me, either. He wrestled a babyface comeback in chicago right down to clapping his hands. They had him kick del rios head off and be the enemy of vince. They"Banned"his name in an effort to make people cheer it. He complimented the fans on the last raw for the changes in wwe. He plays to the crowd. He's never gonna wear a white hat and hes a bit flawed and in the morally grey area but so was austin. i think its pretty much safe to say hes a face.
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,714
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Post by Rican on Aug 6, 2011 16:19:07 GMT -5
Ya know, I feel like the WWE rarely fires anyone that deserves it. If someone is put on TV with several different gimmicks and is given an opportunity to get over, plenty of matches, promos, etc, and he isn't cutting it, it makes sense to cut him loose. But this crop? I can kind of understand Melina, but the rest of it shows the WWE dropping the ball.
Kozlov was working out just fine as a comedy wrestler and was a solid big guy. Him and Santino had an over tag team that was really over (probably mostly due to Santino, but Kozlov played off of him well.) There was no reason to get rid of him.
Chris Masters...man, don't even get me started. He improved so much and never even got a shot. The WWE midcard is kind of crowded but Masters is exactly the kind of guy that would do well in a tag team if they would have them. He never even got a shot, and its not like it was even for lack of trying. Total nonsense.
Gail Kim was one of the LAST divas they should have cut loose. Honestly, the divas "division" is the most expendable portion of the WWE roster. They could fire at least half, maybe MORE than half of those women and no one would bat an eyelash. I don't want anyone to lose their job, but for what the WWE uses these women, they could just hire models or strippers in whatever city they're in to do the same basic thing and the crowd would care about the same, not to mention it would probably save the WWE a lot of money. If you want a womens wrestling roster than hire women wrestlers, not underwear models, and don't f***ing fire ACTUAL WRESTLERS like Gail.
DH Smith was part of an over tag team that they broke up for NO reason almost a year ago and have yet to do ANYTHING with them. Complete madness.
If WWE wants to save money, fire most of the divas and the majority of the cookie cutter developmental roster. Get better talent scouts and bring in better women wrestlers.
If WWE wants to find something for these people to do, f***ING TAG TEAMS. Trent Baretta, Yoshi Tatsu, Tyler Reks, Tyson Kid, JTG, etc, all those guys aren't doing shit. Why aren't you utilizing them if you're paying them? Why aren't you giving them a chance? Consulting them for ideas regarding their characters or things they would like to do? How do they know someone like Trent or Tyson isn't a potential break-out start given the opportunity?
It's maddening.
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Totorob101
Hank Scorpio
Glob Glob Glob
Posts: 5,799
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Post by Totorob101 on Aug 6, 2011 16:26:30 GMT -5
The WWE is not a great place to be for the midcard,tag teams and divas.The main eventers are untouchable while everyone else is expendable.With DH Smith and Kozlov gone,two tag teams have been destroyed by the firings (would have loved to have seen Smiith and Kid back as a team,i loved Kozlov and Santino),Masters is a great solid talent who would have been great in the midcard for either the US or IC title,and Gail and Melinas leaving..pretty much leaves the face side severely weakened and gets rid of two of the better wrestlers.Theres a lot of great talent that will probably remain unusued until the next cuts,while it looks like the Tag team division will continue to rot away and Kelly Kelly being the dominant female of the divas division for a time to come.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Aug 6, 2011 16:46:21 GMT -5
......is it safe now?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 6, 2011 16:48:17 GMT -5
I dunno. Punk's in a really ambiguous place now, I think. He's talking about giving the fans what they want, sure, but it's more in the vein of what HE thinks they want(and, to be fair, what a large chunk of the internet community wants), as opposed to openly pandering, like Cena does. I'm not gonna say he's full out heel, but he doesn't give off a face vibe to me, either. He wrestled a babyface comeback in chicago right down to clapping his hands. They had him kick del rios head off and be the enemy of vince. They"Banned"his name in an effort to make people cheer it. He complimented the fans on the last raw for the changes in wwe. He plays to the crowd. He's never gonna wear a white hat and hes a bit flawed and in the morally grey area but so was austin. i think its pretty much safe to say hes a face. Austin wrestled mostly heels. I see nothing of Punk to suggest he'll do the same. Oh, and Austin never ran.
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Post by Free Hat on Aug 6, 2011 16:50:25 GMT -5
Ya know, I feel like the WWE rarely fires anyone that deserves it. If someone is put on TV with several different gimmicks and is given an opportunity to get over, plenty of matches, promos, etc, and he isn't cutting it, it makes sense to cut him loose. But this crop? I can kind of understand Melina, but the rest of it shows the WWE dropping the ball. Kozlov was working out just fine as a comedy wrestler and was a solid big guy. Him and Santino had an over tag team that was really over (probably mostly due to Santino, but Kozlov played off of him well.) There was no reason to get rid of him. Chris Masters...man, don't even get me started. He improved so much and never even got a shot. The WWE midcard is kind of crowded but Masters is exactly the kind of guy that would do well in a tag team if they would have them. He never even got a shot, and its not like it was even for lack of trying. Total nonsense. Gail Kim was one of the LAST divas they should have cut loose. Honestly, the divas "division" is the most expendable portion of the WWE roster. They could fire at least half, maybe MORE than half of those women and no one would bat an eyelash. I don't want anyone to lose their job, but for what the WWE uses these women, they could just hire models or strippers in whatever city they're in to do the same basic thing and the crowd would care about the same, not to mention it would probably save the WWE a lot of money. If you want a womens wrestling roster than hire women wrestlers, not underwear models, and don't f***ing fire ACTUAL WRESTLERS like Gail. DH Smith was part of an over tag team that they broke up for NO reason almost a year ago and have yet to do ANYTHING with them. Complete madness. If WWE wants to save money, fire most of the divas and the majority of the cookie cutter developmental roster. Get better talent scouts and bring in better women wrestlers. If WWE wants to find something for these people to do, f***ING TAG TEAMS. Trent Baretta, Yoshi Tatsu, Tyler Reks, Tyson Kid, JTG, etc, all those guys aren't doing s***. Why aren't you utilizing them if you're paying them? Why aren't you giving them a chance? Consulting them for ideas regarding their characters or things they would like to do? How do they know someone like Trent or Tyson isn't a potential break-out start given the opportunity? It's maddening. Wait, when were the Hart Dynasty ever over? The only time they ever seemed to get a reaction was when Bret was with them.
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