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Post by mauled on May 17, 2012 13:22:58 GMT -5
Here's the kicker: on a month-to-month basis, Bret Hart was drawing more money as champion in 1995-96 (up to WM12) than Shawn was during his first run. Meltzer had pointed out the numbers in his report about the Screwjob; and similarly numbers were posted here during a thread sometime ago. Bret was also drawing considerably more than Michaels outside the United States, particularly in Europe where WWF/E was making inroads. As I've told Juice and now KingBookerMaker, I've not received any valid argument about any basis on which Shawn Michaels could be considered the absolute top-notch. His appeal was very much more based on a very concerted, yet misdirected in my opinion, to sell him than on any merits he brought to the business. Heck, Marty Jannetty in teaming with Waltman to win the tag titles demonstrated more professionalism and "willingness to play with others" than Michaels ever did. ...Why do you even NEED a valid argument? The people that think he's the best (in the ring, for the record, not at drawing numbers which, yet again, this thread has steered in the direction of) think so because in their mind, he is. You're asking for proof of something that can't be proven, an opinion. Do you ask someone who thinks The Godfather is the greatest movie ever for proof, or do you just tell them they're wrong because Titanic drew a bigger box office? Wrestling fans, man. Such a strange breed. In terms of greatest I think shawn is definetly up there though I dont think he is the greatest (That for me is the Rock/Savage/Bret or Angle) and contrary to myth he has had a few bad matches (Crush king of the ring 93 as one example) but for my fave matches Shawns name will be on the list of a few of them. Otoh you use the film anology with Godfather but most filmmakers/producers will say Citizen Kane is the greatest for how groundbreaking it was and what was done in it with camera work etc and if you use the same for wrestling somone like Dynamite invented the ladder match (including Shawns finish from wm10) match while Shawns flying elbow was done before by Savage etc. How many moves/events did Shawn invent ?? |
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,706 
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Post by The Ichi on May 17, 2012 13:30:25 GMT -5
...Why do you even NEED a valid argument? The people that think he's the best (in the ring, for the record, not at drawing numbers which, yet again, this thread has steered in the direction of) think so because in their mind, he is. You're asking for proof of something that can't be proven, an opinion. Do you ask someone who thinks The Godfather is the greatest movie ever for proof, or do you just tell them they're wrong because Titanic drew a bigger box office? Wrestling fans, man. Such a strange breed. In terms of greatest I think shawn is definetly up there though I dont think he is the greatest (That for me is the Rock/Savage/Bret or Angle) and contrary to myth he has had a few bad matches (Crush king of the ring 93 as one example) but for my fave matches Shawns name will be on the list of a few of them. Otoh you use the film anology with Godfather but most filmmakers/producers will say Citizen Kane is the greatest for how groundbreaking it was and what was done in it with camera work etc and if you use the same for wrestling somone like Dynamite invented the ladder match (including Shawns finish from wm10) match while Shawns flying elbow was done before by Savage etc. How many moves/events did Shawn invent ?? I was pretty much just going with the first film to come to mind. Don't look that deeply into it. |
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,777 
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Post by nisidhe on May 17, 2012 21:23:30 GMT -5
Actually, IchiMan, I'd like any argument that could give me pause to consider why the accolades and laurels we fans have laid at HBK's feet couldn't have gone to someone else. There were better technicians on the roster, more compelling feuds and personalities about whom fans seemed to care more. In the end, I just feel that Shawn didn't bring anything unique to the table to deserve the attention he got.
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repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,076
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Post by repomark on May 18, 2012 4:36:31 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels was a five star match machine and in my view no other wrestler past or present has a better back catalogue of matches to their name. He was part of two of the most over tag teams of all time - the Rockers and DX - and also he was was part of a very revolutionary DX in 97/98 that was a large part of the Attitude era getting off the ground.
When you try to list his best matches it takes ages, and generally it is hard to trim it down.
Rockers v Orient Express (Royal Rumble 91)
vs Razor Ramon (WM10) - ladder match
Royal Rumble 95 (still the best finish in the history of the Rumble)
vs Razor Ramon (Summerslam 95) - ladder match 2
vs Bret Hart (WM12) - Iron Man
vs Diesel (Good Friends Better Enemies)
vs Vader (Summerslam 96)
vs Mankind (Mind Games)
vs Undertaker (Ground Zero)
vs Undertaker (Badd Blood) - Hell in a Cell
vs Stone Cold Steve Austin (WM14)
vs Triple H (Summerslam 2002)
Elimination Chamber - (Survivor Series 2002)
vs Triple H (Royal Rumble 2003) - last man standing
vs Chris Jericho (WM19)
vs Chris Benoit vs Triple H (WM20)
vs Shelton Benjamin (Raw 2004)
vs Kurt Angle (WM21)
vs Kurt Angle (Vengeance 2005)
vs Hulk Hogan (Summerslam 2005)
vs Vince McMahon (WM22)
DX vs McMahons (Summerslam 2006)
vs John Cena (WM23)
vs John Cena (Raw in London)
vs John Cena vs Edge vs Randy Orton (Backlash 2006)
vs Ric Flair (WM24)
vs Chris Jericho (No Mercy 2008) - Ladder match
vs Undertaker (WM25)
vs Undertaker (WM26)
And I know I have missed loads!
I believe the "best ever" has to take a number of factors into consideration even beyond in ring work, but in my view just taking what he did in that ring no one can touch him.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 6:15:58 GMT -5
Must be a new era of retirees if they tout Shawn Michaels as the greatest this time. They don't have Buddy Rogers to fawn over anymore, what with his being dead and all.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on May 18, 2012 8:20:21 GMT -5
A combination of both. The WWE do tend to inflate his reputation but it isn't without merit.
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Post by Atomic Leg Drop on May 21, 2012 17:08:34 GMT -5
If going by ring work, I'm going to have to say Kurt Angle is the greatest. Of all the greatest workers (Benoit, Misawa, Daniel Bryan, Milenko, ect.) he's the only one I really got into.
Despite his size, Kurt looks (and can) kill you in the ring if he really wanted to. He has all the attributes of HBK and I'd dare say he even has a better moonsault than HBK.
I also think Kurt Angle is the greatest all rounder in the history of the business. Nobody comes close to ranking as highly as he does in terms of charisma, mic skills, wrestling abilities in all their forms, and who else can do comedy and seriousness so seamlessly?
HBK is great but I have to put Kurt Angle as the best in ring performer.
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