|
|
Post by rzombie1988 on May 14, 2012 18:30:53 GMT -5
He was a very good and probably great performer but not the greatest of all time.
|
|
nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,777 
|
Post by nisidhe on May 14, 2012 20:01:21 GMT -5
This whole Japanese thing is stupid. Think about where you are posting, the WWE thread. all of your Japanese talents that never worked big time in America should be only best wrestlers never work in wwe (or promotions that wwe owns the rights to).[ /quote] The discussion of Japan is relevant because part of my refutation of your claim that Shawn is the greatest is that a number of Japanese stars are or were better technicians. Your declaration that the discussion of Japan's stars is stupid, does not automatically make the discussion stupid. Not exactly a single dojo event, but.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_in_KoreaAnd, while some WrestleManias have done very, very well gatewise, New Japan's numbers were more consistent while still very much on par with the larger WrestleManias. www.prowrestling.com/pw/almanac/attendance_recordsBut the above figures, admittedly, are a side argument into which I will not enter with you on this thread. Catchphrases like "the total package" aren't going to cut it here, I'm afraid. I've set out a rather large number of reasons why Shawn Michaels cannot be defined as the greatest. Indeed, even when I consider combinations of factors, Shawn simply doesn't measure up. Please, explain how Shawn's "legendary" status is not merely the product of a marketing machine that, for whatever reason, had to make him the top guy when they had so many better choices. Point of order: Bret Hart put Austin over at WrestleMania 13 as a solid main event and "face" of the Attitude Era. You may want to search "Hogan in Japan" on YT for a demonstration of his in-ring skills. He dumbed down his body of work for American audiences. If he did in North America what was expected of him in Japan, Hogan would be mentioned in almost the same breath as the Harts. I was rather pleasantly surprised with Hogan, tbh. Austin's original WWE gimmick as the Ringmaster was derived from his Hollywood Blond days in WCW. In any event Austin was at least as technically solid as HBK is claimed to have been. Brian Pillman, before his ankle injury, was a better aerialist than Michaels. Charismatic? To an extent, I will grant that, but he's no Rock. Versatile? Easy enough when one has to be, given the state of the roster when he was on top; and easier still when he was being promoted ad nauseam by the company. And yes, Juice, he was being carried for much of his career. What he did to entertain could have been by just about anyone else saddled with the "Sexy Boy" gimmick, and his in-ring work was far too reactive to his opponent's moveset to suggest that he led the action in the ring. Seriously, I'm still not clear as to why you feel objectively that Shawn Michaels is the greatest apart from your own opinion. While your own opinion is your own, it's possible that you're not sure of why. Please understand, though, that one best be prepared to defend one's opinion vigorously and knowledgably when dealing with some of these boards. 8) |
|
unc40
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,664
|
Post by unc40 on May 14, 2012 20:19:04 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels is the greatest wrestler ever and if you don't believe me just ask Shawn.
|
|
Juice
El Dandy
Wrong? Oh he can tell ya about being wrong.
I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
Posts: 8,172
|
Post by Juice on May 14, 2012 21:00:10 GMT -5
Hogan in japan is not impressive. So many people put that crap over and it's not that good.
the ringmaster failed miserably even with Ted as his manager
Sure Bret harts put Austin on the main event Map but his win against HBK for the title at mania did much more for his longevity
and HBk was a total package who was versatile and could get a great match out of anyone. Look at his match with Tatanka or Great Khali, hell John Cenas best performances were against HBK. to claim HBk needed to be carried by the likes of those I just mentioned is ridiculous. He also made Shelton Benjamin who is probably the most overrated mid carder of all time look like a million bucks.
and if you go back to IDK page 1 or 2 I said quite clearly that in my book, (a phrase for in my opinion) was the greatest. You're really douching this thread up with these personal attacks.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kick Your Face on May 14, 2012 22:42:21 GMT -5
1.Misawa 2.Kobashi 3.Kawada 4.Mutoh 5.Akiyama 6.Taue 7. Tenryu 8.Liger 9. Hashimoto 10.Chono I'm a huge fan of Japanese wrestling, but this is kind of a over the top list. MAYBE you could make the case for Misawa being better than Shawn. Even the biggest Japanese wrestling fans will tell you that Shawn's body of work was better than that of Chono and several other guys on that list. I would agree with Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Hashimoto, Taue, Tenryu, and Liger for sure, but no to the other three. I'd also throw in Jumbo 100%, and probably a couple others. |
|
nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,777
|
Post by nisidhe on May 14, 2012 23:08:13 GMT -5
Hogan in japan is not impressive. So many people put that crap over and it's not that good. the ringmaster failed miserably even with Ted as his manager Sure Bret harts put Austin on the main event Map but his win against HBK for the title at mania did much more for his longevity and HBk was a total package who was versatile and could get a great match out of anyone. Look at his match with Tatanka or Great Khali, hell John Cenas best performances were against HBK. to claim HBk needed to be carried by the likes of those I just mentioned is ridiculous. He also made Shelton Benjamin who is probably the most overrated mid carder of all time look like a million bucks. and if you go back to IDK page 1 or 2 I said quite clearly that in my book, (a phrase for in my opinion) was the greatest. You're really douching this thread up with these personal attacks. At no point in any of my responses to you, to this point, have I made any comment concerning you personally unless, by some incredible twist of fate, I am addressing Mr. Higginbottom himself. If you are, I apologize if my words offend you. I will not, however, take them back. You are entitled to your opinion. However, you, like everyone else here, are not entitled to across-the-board validation of that opinion in a public forum, especially if you are not prepared to defend your position in a manner that furthers the discussion. You must be prepared to be challenged and, occasionally, to concede a point or even an entire argument. If I have made an error in my arguments, I would welcome the opportunity to learn as, I would hope, would anyone else here. |
|
Juice
El Dandy
Wrong? Oh he can tell ya about being wrong.
I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
Posts: 8,172
|
Post by Juice on May 14, 2012 23:20:44 GMT -5
dude how am I not furthering discussion or defending my point? You're basically accusing me posting HBK is TEH BEST F off if you disagrees!!!!!!! and your attitude is pissing me off.
Shawn has dragged great matches out of subpar wrestlers such as 123 kid, sid, Diesel, Jeff hardy, Double J, Rick Martell, Tatanka, JBL, aged and worthless Hogan, Great Khali, Mr kennedy, the list goes on forever.
I can see if this was a bout HHH being presented by the WWE Hype machine, I can buy that all day long, but for you to say that HBK, one of the best workers in the history of the business was carried you're just absolutely wrong.
and your trolling douchebag attitude is not welcomed at all. The Japanese wrestlers stated are overrated because they are foreign and the IWC have an elitest attitude. You appear to have forgotten that professional wrestling is a pre determined fake sport. And not one of those Japanese "athletes" could ever draw a dime in America or curtain jerk for guys like HBk.
|
|
|
|
Post by warriorthug4edge on May 14, 2012 23:51:26 GMT -5
and your trolling douchebag attitude is not welcomed at all. The Japanese wrestlers stated are overrated because they are foreign and the IWC have an elitest attitude. You appear to have forgotten that professional wrestling is a pre determined fake sport. And not one of those Japanese "athletes" could ever draw a dime in America or curtain jerk for guys like HBk. A lot of those Japanese wrestlers have drawn thousands of dollars in Japan and have no reason to come here. And there's no way to know how much they would draw over here. And really---they're overrated because the IWC is "elitest" and they're foreign? I'd shudder to think what you think about a foreign guy who did draw a ton of money and should be ranked higher on the list in terms of drawing power (although not as a wrestler in any way, shape, or form) in Bruno Sammartino. |
|
|
|
Post by Kick Your Face on May 15, 2012 0:03:26 GMT -5
The Japanese wrestlers stated are overrated because they are foreign and the IWC have an elitest attitude. You appear to have forgotten that professional wrestling is a pre determined fake sport. And not one of those Japanese "athletes" could ever draw a dime in America or curtain jerk for guys like HBk. This is a rather ridiculous statement considering only a handful of names from Japan were listed when there are thousands... Well, from the women, I'd definitely include Jaguar, Jackie Sato, Chigusa, Hokuto, and Bull. Probably a couple more if I'd think about it. |
|
|
|
Post by MichaelMartini on May 15, 2012 1:12:21 GMT -5
dude how am I not furthering discussion or defending my point? You're basically accusing me posting HBK is TEH BEST F off if you disagrees!!!!!!! and your attitude is pissing me off. Shawn has dragged great matches out of subpar wrestlers such as 123 kid, sid, Diesel, Jeff hardy, Double J, Rick Martell, Tatanka, JBL, aged and worthless Hogan, Great Khali, Mr kennedy, the list goes on forever. I can see if this was a bout HHH being presented by the WWE Hype machine, I can buy that all day long, but for you to say that HBK, one of the best workers in the history of the business was carried you're just absolutely wrong. and your trolling douchebag attitude is not welcomed at all. The Japanese wrestlers stated are overrated because they are foreign and the IWC have an elitest attitude. You appear to have forgotten that professional wrestling is a pre determined fake sport. And not one of those Japanese "athletes" could ever draw a dime in America or curtain jerk for guys like HBk. If you're saying HBK had great matches with those guys then you are a blind HBK mark. I've seen those matches and aside from the Kennedy one they were all not very good to average. Any small guy like say Evan Bourne or AJ Styles can do what he did (and more), they just never had the unjustified monster push that he got. |
|
|
|
Post by Kick Your Face on May 15, 2012 1:21:39 GMT -5
Wait, since when have 1-2-3 Kid and Rick Martel been considered subpar? Kid was really good and Martel was amazing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 3:19:22 GMT -5
The greatest wrestler of all time is the Sensational, Intelligent Destroyer. He's never met a bear, the greatest wrestler in the animal kingdom, that he couldn't beat.
|
|
|
|
Post by rnrk supports BLM on May 15, 2012 3:44:33 GMT -5
The greatest wrestler of all time is the Sensational, Intelligent Destroyer. He's never met a bear, the greatest wrestler in the animal kingdom, that he couldn't beat. C'mon, Victor the Bear was clearly the one carrying that match. He could drag a 5 star classic out of anyone. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 3:45:19 GMT -5
The greatest wrestler of all time is the Sensational, Intelligent Destroyer. He's never met a bear, the greatest wrestler in the animal kingdom, that he couldn't beat. C'mon, Victor the Bear was clearly the one carrying that match. He could drag a 5 star classic out of anyone. Please, Victor was clearly on the gas. |
|
|
|
Post by Cela on May 15, 2012 4:35:53 GMT -5
Dunno about greatest ever, but he's certainly up there. Oddly enough, I think his greatest match ever was a throw away match against Shelton Benjamin on monday night raw.. Gold Rush Tournament, I agree. |
|
Dang!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,326
|
Post by Dang! on May 15, 2012 4:38:10 GMT -5
It's both. He's easily among the top 10 overall performers, but he's not THE GOAT. That's either Hogan or Flair.
|
|
nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,777
|
Post by nisidhe on May 15, 2012 6:49:16 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by memphis25 on May 15, 2012 7:24:19 GMT -5
Shawn is the best ever because he's the most versatile performer wrestling has ever seen.
|
|
J is Justice
Patti Mayonnaise
Will now be grateful.
They say fantasies can't come true, only dreams can.
Posts: 32,588 
|
Post by J is Justice on May 15, 2012 8:13:04 GMT -5
Shawn has dragged great matches out of subpar wrestlers such as 123 kid, sid, Diesel, Jeff hardy, Double J, Rick Martell, Tatanka, JBL, aged and worthless Hogan, Great Khali, Mr kennedy, the list goes on forever. 123 Kid, Jeff Hardy and Martel are subpar? Racist. Neither could Shawn. |
|
|
|
Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 15, 2012 9:26:37 GMT -5
Shawn has dragged great matches out of subpar wrestlers such as 123 kid, sid, Diesel, Jeff hardy, Double J, Rick Martell, Tatanka, JBL, aged and worthless Hogan, Great Khali, Mr kennedy, the list goes on forever. So Michaels carried every worker you're not a fan of? Please. Lumping Jeff Jarrett, Rick Martel, Sean Waltman, Jeff Hardy and so on in with the likes of Sid, Diesel (Who was not a bad worker, just lazy) and Khali is just insulting, they're all more than capable in their own right, heck, even JBL, Kennedy and Tatanka weren't exactly useless. I don't think anyone consider what he did in the Hogan match to be professional, let alone carrying him to a great match. |
|
