Johnny B. Decent
Patti Mayonnaise
Had one once
Everybody's Favorite Arizonian.
Posts: 31,176
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on May 13, 2012 15:53:25 GMT -5
Amigo, I don't get that. I've never seen him botch anything, he's not musclebound and relatively immobile like Khali, he is not dangerous to work with that I'm aware of...how is he "terrible" as a wrestler? Because he works a bad hybrid of King's Road and Shoot-Style, and it doesn't work. At all. It'd be bad if he stuck with one, but together? Hooh boy. Like he'll try to kick a guy's leg off, and then go for a Cross Armbreaker or something, and do stupid shit like a Avalanche Dragon Suplex and not finish with that, among others.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 13, 2012 15:54:43 GMT -5
While I wouldn't consider any of them completely abysmal on the mic, Bret Hart, Randy Orton, Brock Lesnar, Rey Mysterio, Chris Benoit and Jeff Hardy did quite well for themselves in WWE, so it'd be a stretch to claim they don't care about a guy's wrestling ability. Yeah, but for every Rey Mysterio there's an Evan Bourne, you know? I'd argue that if you try to make it like a soap opera, then it can very easily result in something very stupid. Not always, but far too often. WrestleCrap has tons of examples of this. Here's one example... HHH vs. Jericho in 2002 would have been fine if they just focused on HHH pursuing the title after Jericho unified the belts. But that wasn't enough. They thought they needed to add something. "What can we add to make this more interesting? Oh, we have Steph and Hunter go through a divorce, and Steph side with Jericho! But that's not enough, we need to do something more...oh, I just got this awesome idea, we'll have Jericho be responsible for Hunter's dog getting run over!" But here's the thing, you can't JUST focus on the negative aspects of that. Look at Chris Jericho's stuff in WCW. The matches were good, sometimes great, but the promos? Man, those sold those matches 100%. His "Conspiracy victim" skit alone is one of the greatest things, in or out of the ring, in wrestling history. You can't just focus on the times it's poorly done, then say it's unnecessary, any more than someone else could focus only on the positive side and say it's the only important thing. You need a balance. The reason I think ROH is catching a lot of flack recently is that they've completely failed to achieve that balance, focusing way too much on the "pure wrestling" at the sake of it being....well, fun to watch. Same reason EVOLVE is generally regarded as a failure. You have to strike a balance between entertainment and athleticism. ROH, and the former main event triumvirate of dullness especially, can't do that.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on May 13, 2012 16:01:08 GMT -5
s***, what choice did he have? It's freaking Rhino. Richards wrestled Kevin Steen. Not Rhino. Yeah, I was referring to Steen. But I'm not surprised he sold for Rhino. I don't know what definition of "no-selling" people are going by here. He does act like being hit hurts him. He does act like he's in pain when somebody locks on a submission hold. He doesn't necessarily nurse the body part that was in that submission hold after he gets out of it, but if that's the problem then I don't see how he's worse than anybody else; I've seen plenty of people get out of his ankle lock and then walk or run around the ring like their foot wasn't bothering them at all. If people mean "He gets hit with a high impact move, doesn't get pinned, and then later in the match he comes back and has tons of energy," then okay, maybe, and I'm not gonna say I'm a fan of that...but again, he's far from the only person who does that. As long as he doesn't immediately spring right up after getting suplexed, I consider that selling the suplex.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on May 13, 2012 16:06:42 GMT -5
Amigo, I don't get that. I've never seen him botch anything, he's not musclebound and relatively immobile like Khali, he is not dangerous to work with that I'm aware of...how is he "terrible" as a wrestler? Because he works a bad hybrid of King's Road and Shoot-Style, and it doesn't work. At all. It'd be bad if he stuck with one, but together? Hooh boy. Like he'll try to kick a guy's leg off, and then go for a Cross Armbreaker or something, and do stupid s*** like a Avalanche Dragon Suplex and not finish with that, among others. Okay, I'm sorry, I just don't get that. Why is that particular combination bad? If you have a guy in a cross armbreaker and he gets the rope break or escapes, then why not follow up with a suplex?
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 13, 2012 16:10:31 GMT -5
Because he works a bad hybrid of King's Road and Shoot-Style, and it doesn't work. At all. It'd be bad if he stuck with one, but together? Hooh boy. Like he'll try to kick a guy's leg off, and then go for a Cross Armbreaker or something, and do stupid s*** like a Avalanche Dragon Suplex and not finish with that, among others. Okay, I'm sorry, I just don't get that. Why is that particular combination bad? If you have a guy in a cross armbreaker and he gets the rope break or escapes, then why not follow up with a suplex? Thing is, he's criticizing Davey for working the leg, then trying to go for an ARM submission, which is stupid. Pick a body part, work that. And the Avalanche Dragon Suplex thing is a separate issue. That should be a finish, not just another spot, which is what Richards makes it.
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Johnny B. Decent
Patti Mayonnaise
Had one once
Everybody's Favorite Arizonian.
Posts: 31,176
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on May 13, 2012 16:13:07 GMT -5
What he said.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on May 13, 2012 16:18:15 GMT -5
Okay, I'm sorry, I just don't get that. Why is that particular combination bad? If you have a guy in a cross armbreaker and he gets the rope break or escapes, then why not follow up with a suplex? Thing is, he's criticizing Davey for working the leg, then trying to go for an ARM submission, which is stupid. Pick a body part, work that. And the Avalanche Dragon Suplex thing is a separate issue. That should be a finish, not just another spot, which is what Richards makes it. But if a submission's any good in real life then you shouldn't need to work over a body part for ten minutes in order for it to be effective. Seems like the strategy there is "Take out the guy's leg so that he falls down and is vulnerable, and then start stretching whatever body part is within reach," and to me that makes sense.
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Johnny B. Decent
Patti Mayonnaise
Had one once
Everybody's Favorite Arizonian.
Posts: 31,176
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on May 13, 2012 16:20:03 GMT -5
But if a submission's any good in real life then you shouldn't need to work over a body part for ten minutes in order for it to be effective. Seems like the strategy there is "Take out the guy's leg so that he falls down and is vulnerable, and then start stretching whatever body part is within reach," and to me that makes sense. Not really. You can pretty much search any random UWFI match on youtube and you'll find if they kick the crap out of their opponents's legs, they usually go for a leg submission, of if they try for the Cross Armbreaker, they tease it being locked in before the escape at least one or twice through the match.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 13, 2012 16:21:50 GMT -5
But if a submission's any good in real life then you shouldn't need to work over a body part for ten minutes in order for it to be effective. Seems like the strategy there is "Take out the guy's leg so that he falls down and is vulnerable, and then start stretching whatever body part is within reach," and to me that makes sense. Not really. You can pretty much search any random UWFI match on youtube and you'll find if they kick the crap out of their opponents's legs, they usually go for a leg submission, of if they try for the Cross Armbreaker, they tease it being locked in before the escape at least one or twice through the match. Pretty much. It's just basic psychology. If you work the leg, try to finish the leg. If you work the back, try to finish that. And on and on.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on May 13, 2012 16:32:44 GMT -5
Not really. You can pretty much search any random UWFI match on youtube and you'll find if they kick the crap out of their opponents's legs, they usually go for a leg submission, of if they try for the Cross Armbreaker, they tease it being locked in before the escape at least one or twice through the match. Pretty much. It's just basic psychology. If you work the leg, try to finish the leg. If you work the back, try to finish that. And on and on. Alls I know is that back when I took a little jiu-jitsu and sparred, opponents were able to make me tap just fine without first working over the body part they eventually stretched. For a pro wrestling example, I don't recall Chris Jericho ever doing a whole lot to wear down his opponents' legs before locking on the Walls. Just to be sure, I looked at his moveset on Wikipedia, and it shows him primarily targeting the body and head.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 13, 2012 16:43:04 GMT -5
Pretty much. It's just basic psychology. If you work the leg, try to finish the leg. If you work the back, try to finish that. And on and on. Alls I know is that back when I took a little jiu-jitsu and sparred, opponents were able to make me tap just fine without first working over the body part they eventually stretched. For a pro wrestling example, I don't recall Chris Jericho ever doing a whole lot to wear down his opponents' legs before locking on the Walls. Just to be sure, I looked at his moveset on Wikipedia, and it shows him primarily targeting the body and head. The Walls of Jericho is a high angle Boston Crab. That move puts strain the back(in kayfabe, anyways). Perfectly in line. And pro wrestling isn't jiu-jitsu. You need to tell a story in the ring, not just win. Working a body part is a part of that. It's what makes you wonder, if a guy's getting his leg worked over "Oh, man, is he gonna be able to get his opponent up for *Big move* on a weak back?" or "Will he be able to get back in the ring quick enough to beat a ten count on a bad knee?" and so on and so forth. It's not just about "What move will win?" it's about "What combination of moves will tell the best story?"
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on May 13, 2012 17:49:24 GMT -5
Alls I know is that back when I took a little jiu-jitsu and sparred, opponents were able to make me tap just fine without first working over the body part they eventually stretched. For a pro wrestling example, I don't recall Chris Jericho ever doing a whole lot to wear down his opponents' legs before locking on the Walls. Just to be sure, I looked at his moveset on Wikipedia, and it shows him primarily targeting the body and head. The Walls of Jericho is a high angle Boston Crab. That move puts strain the back(in kayfabe, anyways). Perfectly in line. And pro wrestling isn't jiu-jitsu. You need to tell a story in the ring, not just win. Working a body part is a part of that. It's what makes you wonder, if a guy's getting his leg worked over "Oh, man, is he gonna be able to get his opponent up for *Big move* on a weak back?" or "Will he be able to get back in the ring quick enough to beat a ten count on a bad knee?" and so on and so forth. It's not just about "What move will win?" it's about "What combination of moves will tell the best story?" Even Hulk Hogan gets that. His opponent would pound on the back and put him in a bearhug, and when he'd first go for a slam, his back would give out on him. Only with the fans' support would he be able to Hulk Up, fight through the pain and make the comeback. It's not a flashy sequence, but it's an emotional one. When wrestlers emphasize storytelling, it's not out of trying to cover up any deficincies.
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biafra
El Dandy
Biafra Who?
Posts: 7,617
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Post by biafra on May 13, 2012 18:26:35 GMT -5
I have been one of the boards biggest Davey defenders, and I still like Davey. He is a hard worker, a great upper mid card guy and likely an ok champ if his reign had a better variety of opponents. If Davey was THE quiet shooter type in Roh It'd be ok. But not only are there a number of guys doing the same thing; but he wrestles them repeatedly. His deficiencies in psychology/promo skills can be masked. He is a hard worker with (imo) a certain charisma. But not when he wrestles clones of himself.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 13, 2012 18:37:50 GMT -5
I have been one of the boards biggest Davey defenders, and I still like Davey. He is a hard worker, a great upper mid card guy and likely an ok champ if his reign had a better variety of opponents. If Davey was THE quiet shooter type in Roh It'd be ok. But not only are there a number of guys doing the same thing; but he wrestles them repeatedly. His deficiencies in psychology/promo skills can be masked. He is a hard worker with (imo) a certain charisma. But not when he wrestles clones of himself. This IS a point. It'd be a lot harder to pick on Davey if it wasn't for the fact that he wrestles Roddy and Eddie so often. Their styles are so similar(read: Exactly the same), that their individual flaws are magnified. Dude needs, above all, variety.
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biafra
El Dandy
Biafra Who?
Posts: 7,617
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Post by biafra on May 13, 2012 18:47:41 GMT -5
I have been one of the boards biggest Davey defenders, and I still like Davey. He is a hard worker, a great upper mid card guy and likely an ok champ if his reign had a better variety of opponents. If Davey was THE quiet shooter type in Roh It'd be ok. But not only are there a number of guys doing the same thing; but he wrestles them repeatedly. His deficiencies in psychology/promo skills can be masked. He is a hard worker with (imo) a certain charisma. But not when he wrestles clones of himself. This IS a point. It'd be a lot harder to pick on Davey if it wasn't for the fact that he wrestles Roddy and Eddie so often. Their styles are so similar(read: Exactly the same), that their individual flaws are magnified. Dude needs, above all, variety. It's like if Dean Malenko (although he is more psychologically sound) were wrestling other short, quiet but deadly white guys on Nitro, as good as he was it would have gotten old. But he was THE guy like that among a variety of colorful luchas. Davey has his flaws. But better booking/opponent variety could cover a lot of it instead of pointing a neon arrow at them by having him vrs Strong/Eddie till I puke.
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Post by Kitty Shamrocks on May 13, 2012 19:27:58 GMT -5
This thread was a really interesting read, tbh. It's kinda neat to see that one person can find something about a match or wrestler completely trivial while someone else sees it as being really clutch. Honestly, both sides have good points.
My opinion on Davey is very middle of the road, mostly because of what Biafra brought up. There ARE a lot of "grr I'm intense" guys in ROH, and that's kinda...their whole thing, imo. So when you have Davey doing it too, it's just not as interesting. Still, I think what he does, he does just fine.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 20:25:14 GMT -5
hey so....someone do a face swap of Davey and that Wombat
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kerda
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 351
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Post by kerda on May 13, 2012 23:55:00 GMT -5
I'm personally not a huge fan of Davey, but I completely understand why some people are just apesh*t for him. Where you come down on Davey Richards is I think a pretty good indicator of what sort of pro-wrestling you like in general.
People who dislike Davey are those who enjoy the more narrative aspect of pro-wrestling. Not just the promos/storylines element, but "telling a story" in the ring, sequencing matches in a "logical" manner (or as logical as a pro-wrestling match can be) and slowly building up to an exciting climax. To these people, Davey is the embodiment of why people crap on indie wrestling, where it's just about going 100 mph at all times and doing cool sh*t, with minimal selling and little (if any) concern for narrative consistency.
But that's why the Davey boosters love him so damn much, because you can tell that he's giving 127% in each and every match. These are people who appreciate pro-wrestling more from the perspective of being an athletic exhibition, where slowing down to "sell" or "build a story" are just excuses used by guys who are lazy and/or out of shape to half-ass in the ring. From that perspective, it's easy to see how Richards could be seen as one of the best in the world, as his athleticism and endurance and absolutely insane, and he can go harder for longer than damn near anybody else in the business. For these fans, criticizing a guy for pulling off lots of exciting spots is like going to a restaurant and returning your dish for being too delicious.
I tend to fall more into the former camp, but like I said initially, I get why some people just love the guy, and I can respect it. Really, I think a lot of the hate Davey has gotten over the last year is directed more at the general direction of the ROH product, away from a more balanced experience and towards too many of the humorless "fake MMA" types (Richards, Eddie, Strong, Cole, O'Reilly, etc.). I'm hoping that with Steen as champ, we'll begin to get a more diverse product, and guys like Davey can be less overexposed and more appreciated for what they do well.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on May 14, 2012 2:04:33 GMT -5
And pro wrestling isn't jiu-jitsu. Let me elaborate on what I was saying. We smarks often complain when we see a lack of realism in pro wrestling, right? For example, the reason we don't like no-selling is because we think "Hey, if somebody hits you really hard in real life, then it hurts! If you don't react to it at all, you aren't being realistic!" I read your and Amigo's and Radio Clash's comments about Davey not bothering to work over a specific body part before going for a submission as a complaint about it not being realistic. Maybe I'm wrong, tell me if I am, but that's what I'm getting from you guys. As somebody who has been on the receiving end of real submission holds, I am telling you that there is no working over necessary. It is plenty realistic to try to make somebody tap the way Davey does, i.e. without working over the arm. Even Hulk Hogan gets that. His opponent would pound on the back and put him in a bearhug, and when he'd first go for a slam, his back would give out on him. Only with the fans' support would he be able to Hulk Up, fight through the pain and make the comeback. It's not a flashy sequence, but it's an emotional one. When wrestlers emphasize storytelling, it's not out of trying to cover up any deficincies. Okay, if we want to talk about no-selling, there are few worse offenders than Hogan. The whole "Hulking Up" thing is bullshit. It's unrealistic and, as I said above, if somebody hits you then you better damn well act like it hurts. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if I'd grown up watching Hogan every week as an impressionable kid, the way impressionable kids watch Cena every week, but I didn't really start getting into wrestling until the 90s. But if that's not enough for you, in one of the WrestleCrap books it talks about how Hogan no-sold Vader's powerbomb, which at the time was his finisher, which at the time had been established as something that always got the three. And when I say that he no-sold it, I don't mean that he kicked out, I mean that the book says he got hit with it and hopped right back up. Say what you will about Davey, to my knowledge he has never done anything like hulking up or taken a finisher/potential-match-ending-move from an opponent and hopped right back up.
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Post by CMPunkyBrewster on May 14, 2012 2:21:58 GMT -5
Honestly, I am a huge fan of both Davey and Steen.
That said, Steen is just as guilty of the same kind of no-selling that people are hating on Davey for. Honestly, pretty much every dude on the ROH roster is guilty of it.
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