BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Dec 21, 2011 20:48:25 GMT -5
Most of the finishers look pretty weak to be honest. Especially the Attitude Adjuster. It's a body slam The guy taking the AA is six feet off the ground and being slammed by a man strong enough to have once lifted Edge and the Big Show on his shoulders at the same time. It's enough for a 3 count. His strength really has nothing to do with the impact of the AA though, as most of the time Cena just tosses them over his shoulder. And the opponent takes most of the impact on their lower back and ass, so while it would likely hurt like hell I don't see how it could knock someone out.
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Brainbustaaah!
Hank Scorpio
Best Damn Finishing Move Period
Posts: 5,600
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Post by Brainbustaaah! on Dec 21, 2011 20:52:53 GMT -5
I think WWE has made it a point to make finishing moves less damaging overall. Think about the current crop of moves. Attitude Adjustment GTS RKO Knockout punch Zigg Zagg Cross-Rhodes LeBelle Lock Cross Arm Breaker Worlds Strongest Slam Wasteland Brogue Kick Out of these the only ones that really seem like they could easily hurt someone are the GTS and Brogue Kick. Punk botches the GTS half the time and doesn't even come close to hitting his opponents head full force. Only Sheamus looks like he's trying to literally take the guy head off sometimes. Compare to 90's and 2000's finishers. Tombstone Sweet Chin Music Stone Cold Stunner Sharpshooter Rock Bottom Choke Slam Power Bomb Ankle Lock F5 Diamond Cutter Torture Rack Death Valley Driver Jack Hammer Walls of Jericho/Lion Tamer All of these are great ways to put somebody in the hospital very quickly. If a person hit a very legit Sweet Chin Music on somebody it would probably at least break their lower jaw and crush several teeth. I know from experience. Huh? So The Big Show punching you full force in the temple is a lame, ineffectual-looking finisher, but HBK kicking you in the face is deadly? Makes sense, I guess.
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Post by moneyman20 on Dec 21, 2011 20:58:25 GMT -5
I think WWE has made it a point to make finishing moves less damaging overall. Think about the current crop of moves. Attitude Adjustment GTS RKO Knockout punch Zigg Zagg Cross-Rhodes LeBelle Lock Cross Arm Breaker Worlds Strongest Slam Wasteland Brogue Kick Out of these the only ones that really seem like they could easily hurt someone are the GTS and Brogue Kick. Punk botches the GTS half the time and doesn't even come close to hitting his opponents head full force. Only Sheamus looks like he's trying to literally take the guy head off sometimes. Compare to 90's and 2000's finishers. Tombstone Sweet Chin Music Stone Cold Stunner Sharpshooter Rock Bottom Choke Slam Power Bomb Ankle Lock F5 Diamond Cutter Torture Rack Death Valley Driver Jack Hammer Walls of Jericho/Lion Tamer All of these are great ways to put somebody in the hospital very quickly. If a person hit a very legit Sweet Chin Music on somebody it would probably at least break their lower jaw and crush several teeth. I know from experience. The Lebell Lock? Really? The Lebell Lock is a combination of an Omoplata and a crossface. 1. An Omoplata is a submission move where the someone traps their opponent's arm between their legs and twist the arm in a way that's perpendicular to their back. 2.At the same time, he's using a crossface, which means he's hyperextending his opponents head as far back as possible, which also puts more pressure on their arm as well. How would that not be believable or destructive enough to make someone tap out?
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 21, 2011 20:59:35 GMT -5
I think WWE has made it a point to make finishing moves less damaging overall. Think about the current crop of moves. Attitude Adjustment GTS RKO Knockout punch Zigg Zagg Cross-Rhodes LeBelle Lock Cross Arm Breaker Worlds Strongest Slam Wasteland Brogue Kick Out of these the only ones that really seem like they could easily hurt someone are the GTS and Brogue Kick. Punk botches the GTS half the time and doesn't even come close to hitting his opponents head full force. Only Sheamus looks like he's trying to literally take the guy head off sometimes. Compare to 90's and 2000's finishers. Tombstone Sweet Chin Music Stone Cold Stunner Sharpshooter Rock Bottom Choke Slam Power Bomb Ankle Lock F5 Diamond Cutter Torture Rack Death Valley Driver Jack Hammer Walls of Jericho/Lion Tamer All of these are great ways to put somebody in the hospital very quickly. If a person hit a very legit Sweet Chin Music on somebody it would probably at least break their lower jaw and crush several teeth. I know from experience. Huh? So The Big Show punching you full force in the temple is a lame, ineffectual-looking finisher, but HBK kicking you in the face is deadly? Makes sense, I guess. And considering how legit dangerous a Cross Armbreaker and the LeBell Lock can be, I don't get this argument.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Dec 21, 2011 21:06:11 GMT -5
I think WWE has made it a point to make finishing moves less damaging overall. Think about the current crop of moves. Attitude Adjustment GTS RKO Knockout punch Zigg Zagg Cross-Rhodes LeBelle Lock Cross Arm Breaker Worlds Strongest Slam Wasteland Brogue Kick Out of these the only ones that really seem like they could easily hurt someone are the GTS and Brogue Kick. Punk botches the GTS half the time and doesn't even come close to hitting his opponents head full force. Only Sheamus looks like he's trying to literally take the guy head off sometimes. Of course Punk doesn't look like he's hitting someone with the GTS with full force. You think he's going to risk breaking someones face just to make the move look more damaging?
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Dec 21, 2011 21:44:52 GMT -5
The WMD looks to me like the most believable finisher sinnce it's a guy whose hand is f***ing huge who had boxing training punching you closed fist right in the face. I'm shocked no one's gotten legit knocked out by it yet.
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Post by Kev The Omniscient on Dec 21, 2011 22:14:18 GMT -5
I don't see how the World's Strongest Slam isn't believable, it's a 400+ lb. man driving you down into the mat while simultaniously falling on top of you. I know that would keep me down for a 3 count, if not more.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Dec 21, 2011 22:27:32 GMT -5
Actually most finishers don't look like they'd even keep someone down for a 3 count let alone seriously injure someone, hence why you don't see most of them used in a real fight. That being said, I still don't find it too hard to suspend disbelief. Yea, that's what I was going to say. Hell, most finisher's don't look like they'd even be humanly possible in a legit fight. Just imagine how badly it would turn out for the guy that tries to bust out an RKO during a fight for instance. But as far as suspending disbelief goes, the stuff that happens in the match is the least of WWE's problems when it comes to this.
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Dec 21, 2011 22:42:41 GMT -5
I think WWE has made it a point to make finishing moves less damaging overall. Think about the current crop of moves. Attitude Adjustment GTS RKO Knockout punch Zigg Zagg Cross-Rhodes LeBelle Lock Cross Arm Breaker Worlds Strongest Slam Wasteland Brogue Kick Out of these the only ones that really seem like they could easily hurt someone are the GTS and Brogue Kick. Punk botches the GTS half the time and doesn't even come close to hitting his opponents head full force. Only Sheamus looks like he's trying to literally take the guy head off sometimes. Compare to 90's and 2000's finishers. Tombstone Sweet Chin Music Stone Cold Stunner Sharpshooter Rock Bottom Choke Slam Power Bomb Ankle Lock F5 Diamond Cutter Torture Rack Death Valley Driver Jack Hammer Walls of Jericho/Lion Tamer All of these are great ways to put somebody in the hospital very quickly. If a person hit a very legit Sweet Chin Music on somebody it would probably at least break their lower jaw and crush several teeth. I know from experience. Not only did you say that the Sharpshooter looks more damaging than the LeBell Lock, but also said that an RKO does nothing, while a Diamond Cutter is dangerous. They're pretty much the same move!
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 21, 2011 23:16:04 GMT -5
The guy taking the AA is six feet off the ground and being slammed by a man strong enough to have once lifted Edge and the Big Show on his shoulders at the same time. It's enough for a 3 count. His strength really has nothing to do with the impact of the AA though, as most of the time Cena just tosses them over his shoulder. And the opponent takes most of the impact on their lower back and ass, so while it would likely hurt like hell I don't see how it could knock someone out. You're not trying to knock him out, just disorient them for 3 seconds. If you're falling from six feet in the air and landing prone on your back, that's more than likely to at least dizzy you while a 250+ pound man lays on top of you. Having been in martial arts for a decade, a fall like that is enough to make most people woozy. That doesn't mean you'll hit it in a real fight, of course. But you're not going to piledrive someone in a real fight either. Wrestling moves often require both guys to cooperate to make them work, so that's where any of them become unbelievable. I think WWE has made it a point to make finishing moves less damaging overall. Think about the current crop of moves. Attitude Adjustment GTS RKO Knockout punch Zigg Zagg Cross-Rhodes LeBelle Lock Cross Arm Breaker Worlds Strongest Slam Wasteland Brogue Kick Out of these the only ones that really seem like they could easily hurt someone are the GTS and Brogue Kick. Punk botches the GTS half the time and doesn't even come close to hitting his opponents head full force. Only Sheamus looks like he's trying to literally take the guy head off sometimes. Compare to 90's and 2000's finishers. Tombstone Sweet Chin Music Stone Cold Stunner Sharpshooter Rock Bottom Choke Slam Power Bomb Ankle Lock F5 Diamond Cutter Torture Rack Death Valley Driver Jack Hammer Walls of Jericho/Lion Tamer All of these are great ways to put somebody in the hospital very quickly. If a person hit a very legit Sweet Chin Music on somebody it would probably at least break their lower jaw and crush several teeth. I know from experience. Alright, let's compare them. RKO = Diamond Cutter - The only difference is that one guy did it in the 90's and one guy does it now. Yet one is believable and the other isn't. Stunner = RKO, except you trap their head on your shoulder. A little better, sure, since you have the impact of their neck on your shoulder. However, it relied on them always falling to their knees after the kick... which wouldn't happen in most cases. F5 = Fireman's Carry, spin opponent, and drop them on their face AA = Fireman's Carry, throw them over your shoulder onto their back. Dropping someone in their back means they are less able to cushion their heads when falling. So why is the F5 believable when the AA isn't? The Rock Bottom is similar to those in what it does, lifting someone up and throwing them back first into the mat. The chokeslam gets a pass even though it's the same thing, because with one hand on the neck or chest, you can throw them down to the mat a lot more effectively than a Rock Bottom would be able to. However, if the Chokeslam gets a pass, than the Worlds Strongest Slam and Wasteland have to be given passes as well, because they both involve guys hurling their opponents to the mat, exactly like a power bomb. The WSS ends with Mark freakin Henry lying on top of you. Knockout Punch - The only thing really unbelievable about this is the fact that Big Show punches guys regularly and it's not a finisher. However, the fact that he's a guy with a hand the size of a melon swinging at you more than makes up for that. Guys get knocked out with punches from people who would pack a lot less force than the Big Show. Sweet Chin Music is just as legit, though. Your legs have larger muscles than your arms, and are capable of delivering more straight force. That's why side kicks are common in most martial arts. In a legit fight, it'd leave you open, but in the context of this, it works just as well. Which is also why the Brough Kick is just as effective. The GTS looks weak most of the time just because of how it's delivered and the fact that safety is the highest priority. If we're to believe the F5 is a legit finisher, dropping someone while you slam your knee into their nose is just as believable. As far as submissions go, hoo boy... The Cross Arm Breaker is a legit Jiu Jitsu move. As was stated, the LaBelle Lock is a combination of two submissions. Why are they worse than a Sharpshooter or Walls of Jericho? And all 4 of those are a lot more believable than the best Torture Rack, which is just a holdover from the Hogan days, were most finishers looked pretty lame, to be honest. There are some lame finishers, sure. The Zig Zag is basically "give a guy whiplash" and I'm still trying to figure out what the Cross Rhodes is. But are they really less believable than the flying elbow or the atomic leg drop? Not really. The list you made to try to demonstrate their disparities pretty much shows the opposite, that finishers today are pretty comparable to finishers of the Attitude Era. There aren't pile drivers now beyond the Tombstone, but that's pretty much it. What makes moves less believable now is either a more critical discernment, to be generous, or straight bias, to be harsher, from the viewer.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Dec 21, 2011 23:29:47 GMT -5
Actually, it should be mentioned that submissions have made a serious resurgence as of late. Most of the major wrestlers have submission finishers; either primary, as Bryan and Del Rio do, or secondary, as Punk and Ziggler do. So when you think about that, finishers are probably more believable nowadays than they were in the Attitude Era.
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Post by gonzo16 on Dec 21, 2011 23:59:47 GMT -5
I just figure they aren't trying to kill them so don't do it at 100% full force.
I have more of a problem with moves becoming transitions, like the DDT, when it used to be a killer back in the day. Same goes for the Piledriver.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 22, 2011 0:01:54 GMT -5
Wait, your problem is that finishers look too brutal? Because the most common complaint I hear is the exact opposite.
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hughmorris
Bubba Ho-Tep
Resistance is Futile!
Posts: 652
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Post by hughmorris on Dec 22, 2011 1:42:06 GMT -5
I think most of those finishers listed could have the desired effect of keeping one's opponent down for a three count. Just look at the old timers when a suplex or a body slam ENDED the match now those are just common maneuvers used by everyone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2011 1:43:21 GMT -5
I have no problem believing that most finishers could keep someone down for 3. I also LOVE submission finishers.
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Post by joebob27 on Dec 22, 2011 2:59:02 GMT -5
I don't see how the World's Strongest Slam isn't believable, it's a 400+ lb. man driving you down into the mat while simultaniously falling on top of you. I know that would keep me down for a 3 count, if not more. Yeah, really. I'd tap out so I didn't have to take it.
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Post by Old Jack Burton on Dec 22, 2011 3:46:30 GMT -5
Answering criticisms of my list.
First of all, I suppose I should have included the idea that the current gen of moves are seemingly safer, and less likely to be copied at home in a damaging way.
I think one reason you don't see so many powerbombs these days is because they're extremely easy to do by pretty much anybody, yet are also very easy to hurt someone with.
Diamond Cutter and RKO are not the same move. DDP uses both arms in a cravate hold. If you were to grab somebody in the same way that ddp does and then try to pull them to the ground they'd probably follow you. Orton uses one arm and would likely fall and bust his ass if he tried it on somebody in real life.
Big Show's knockout punch is just a punch. The special part of the move is that it's the big show doing it. Not everybody is 7' tall, 500 lbs. If a 14 year old kid tries to punch the other one in the face it's likely to get dodged, blocked, etc. And if he does land it's not going to put him in the hospital.
Sweet Chin Music however hits a particularly vulnerable part of your body and will easily crush your teeth. It happened to me when I was about 17 and I still have completely chipped and sharp teeth all along the left side of my mouth.
The LeBelle Lock, Cross Arm Breaker, etc are moves that are easy to control. You're really only going to hurt somebody if you do it very intentionally. The sharpshooter/walls of jericho or any move that puts pressure on the back is a very easy move to overextend on and hurt somebody very quickly.
F5 vs Wasteland/Attitude Adjuster is a legit comparison. However, in my mind I always see Brock doing that move outside the ring and slamming the guys side into the ring post.
The Stone Cold Stunner looks like a rather easy way to either bust your own ass pretty badly by jumping up and falling straight on your own tailbone, or to crush someone's throat against your shoulder. It's not really any kind of actual useable move in any real life situation. It's very much a "pro wrestling" move and, again, something for teenagers to screw up.
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Post by sybaku on Dec 22, 2011 10:54:48 GMT -5
The LeBelle Lock, Cross Arm Breaker, etc are moves that are easy to control. You're really only going to hurt somebody if you do it very intentionally.
It seriously takes about an inch of leaning back to snap someones arm with a armbar aka cross armbreaker (as a matter of fact I have permanent damage in my left arm from a botched armbar during a grappling session the guy doing it to me put just a tiny amount of pressure on it because I tried to be a tough guy and didn't tap immediately) and as for the Lebelle Lock its straining both the arm and the neck and again just the smallest amount of pressure can cause damage, and how are they any easier to control then a sharpshooter or the Walls, it kinda sounds like someone is nostalgia grasping
Also not pertaining to your post but I'd rather take a side kick in the face from a normal person then a punch in the face from the freaking Big Show
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Post by Savage Gambino on Dec 22, 2011 11:07:04 GMT -5
Big Show's knockout punch is just a punch. The special part of the move is that it's the big show doing it. Not everybody is 7' tall, 500 lbs. If a 14 year old kid tries to punch the other one in the face it's likely to get dodged, blocked, etc. And if he does land it's not going to put him in the hospital. Yet, you put the Chokeslam in the list of better moves, despite the fact that you have to have a pretty substantial weight difference to use it in wrestling, and if you tried to use it in real life, you'd probably get put on your ass and laughed at. Also, my mind seriously boggles at you scoffing at the LeBell Lock and the Cross Arm Breaker when the Torture Rack is ridiculous at best (and completely ineffectual at worst) and the Walls of Jericho is basically a glorified Boston Crab with maybe a knee to the back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2011 13:07:36 GMT -5
There are very few pinfall obtaining finishers that look much more effective than normal moves in a wrestler's moveset. This has been the case for as long as I've watched wrestling. They will sometimes look more visually impressive, but in the end not really any more powerful.
Fortunately, this doesn't apply to the vast majority of submission finishers, which are quite painful...though "worked" by wrestlers of course to not be so.
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