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Post by lockedontarget on Dec 19, 2011 23:45:10 GMT -5
Orton and Cena came across as packaged, WWE machine guys right off the bat. From their builds to their styles, they were very much "WWE guys" from the start. Punk and Bryan on the other hand, did not have the typical WWE look or style, were small, and very much a product of the indies. The latter couple comes across as a better feel-good story because they never seemed like the kind of guys the WWE would even give a real shot to.
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Phil Parent
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Post by Phil Parent on Dec 19, 2011 23:49:34 GMT -5
...and in that group it's all the same story all over...Cody was too thin, too small and he has a lisp, Beth is too big, Zack Ryder is a Mikey Whipwreck trainee who, before discovering himself, had all the tools to be the blandest wrestler since You in Wrestlemania Challenge, Evan Bourne can't cut a promo and he looks like he's 12, and Kofi...actually is quite acceptable by WWE standards.
But the Magnificient Seven sure is a sign that the winds of change are blowing...
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 19, 2011 23:50:10 GMT -5
Indy work. Basically thats the difference.
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Renslayer
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Post by Renslayer on Dec 19, 2011 23:53:33 GMT -5
Indy work. Basically thats the difference.
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Dec 20, 2011 0:11:59 GMT -5
It's because Cena and Orton were pretty much products of the WWE machine, both in development, and then in the main show. Like another poster stated, they really didn't have much Indy cred built up before going to WWE developmental feds. Once brought to the main roster, they were both portrayed as STARS OF THE FUTURE. I mean, they had Cena take Kurt Angle to the limit on his first match there, and beat Jericho soon after that. His becoming a SUPERSTAR was pretty much a given.....the same with Orton. I mean, it wasn't a coincidence that Randy was picked to be in Triple H's version of the Horsemen.
Whereas, Punk and Bryan were kind of Indy made stars, at least amongst the IWC/ROH fans. That's why wrestling fans are taking it to heart more, because WWE only takes a chance on Indy talent these days if they think that person has "It," potentially. And WWE is finally allowing these two former Indy guys (and Ryder) to potentially represent a New Future for WWE. It's kind of a bold direction, and I guess it's up to Punk and Bryan to live up to that hype.
As for Ryder.....I blame the Internet.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 20, 2011 1:21:38 GMT -5
Because Cena and Orton are the kind of guys WWE grooms for those roles. They relentlessly pushed both of them regardless of the reaction of the crowd. Punk and Bryan on the other hand are the kind of guys who were constantly made to flounder in the midcard, and only got where they are because WWE finally started paying attention to the hardcore wrestling crowd.
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Post by crimsonwolf on Dec 20, 2011 1:43:26 GMT -5
It's not even the indy thing, because Benoit/Guerrero at Wrestlemania 20 and the Hardy Brothers as the WWE and ECW champs also got the "feel good moment."
It's just that Orton and Cena are both practically 10 time champions. Seeing the two pose together just isn't anything special because of how long the duo have been in the title scene.
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Post by Ryushinku on Dec 20, 2011 9:36:13 GMT -5
I don't quite buy a couple of the more extreme reactions to this - that poor humble Punk had to endure years of mid-card squashes to eke and scratch his way up to the MitB '11 success while Cena had the world title handed over within about thirty minutes of turning up because he's all muscular, right? - but most of the suggestions here I agree with in general.
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Post by eJm on Dec 20, 2011 10:07:16 GMT -5
As others have mentioned, Cena and Orton have been Main Eventers or built to Main Eventers for a long time, mostly since their WWE careers started. Also, both of them have won so many world titles, one can't have a real feel good moment with them anymore because it's expected of them to do so.
Along with that, when you hear of stories of people saying 'Steph picked 3 guys who would ascend to stardom; Cena, Orton and Batista', it's pretty much expected they're going to be big because the company expected them to get big. Not saying they were pushed into our faces, because they weren't and Cena got there more naturally then the others did, but they had the rocket already on them waiting to go off.
With Bryan and Punk, they were guys who literally wrestled in rusted university sportshalls, gymnasiums and old broken down arenas for years and progressed up and up from there, with fans following them as they travelled. It's like following your favourite sports team from small time franchise/club to competing in the Super Bowl or the Champions League depending on what example you use.
And like others have said, Punk and Bryan don't look like WWE guys. Who would have expected these two to get where they are now? Noone except the faithful fans behind them and management when they get the chance to see what they can do.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 20, 2011 10:34:47 GMT -5
I don't quite buy a couple of the more extreme reactions to this - that poor humble Punk had to endure years of mid-card squashes to eke and scratch his way up to the MitB '11 success while Cena had the world title handed over within about thirty minutes of turning up because he's all muscular, right? - but most of the suggestions here I agree with in general. A few disjointed thoughts being put together in the following post... Let's not forget that Punk spent a good deal of time in OVW (while Heyman was in charge down there) as well. Even during his time in WWECW, he's always been 'important'. No, he wasn't squashing people or getting the "Superman" treatment that "The Man" gets (though he's starting to get there now), but let's not act like he was in the position Zack Ryder was in before (that's why he was always in factions, so his 'flunkies' could take the squash losses for him and leave him protected). He's a bigger guy than Bryan, too. And here's an odd thing about Bryan's booking that I don't think anyone has brought up in any thread I've posted in. I buy him losing quickly more than I do losing in a long match. The idea that to beat him, you HAVE to overpower and overwhelm him quickly, and the longer a match goes, the more it is to his advantage, because his skillset is built to wear his opponent down. If you haven't beaten Bryan in 5 minutes, you're not GOING to beat him. That's kind of how I see him right now. People like to go on about wrestlers' ages, but weird thing to remember about Punk... He's older than Orton. And R-Truth, at 39 years old, still felt like 'new blood' during his run with Miz.
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Yami Daimao
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Post by Yami Daimao on Dec 20, 2011 11:53:36 GMT -5
Also, the WWE's supposed "anti-indy" mentality at the time makes the Punk/Bryan picture that much more sweet. Almost of a true underdog(s) story, if you will.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Dec 20, 2011 12:17:37 GMT -5
Orton's first title run also came long before he was ready, and IMO that hobbled him for quite some time before the fans took him seriously again (getting buried by Triple H didn't help), whereas Punk and Bryan had to work at it and the fans were ready for it when it finally happened.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Dec 20, 2011 12:42:38 GMT -5
That pic of Punk and Bryan with their belts and the following photoshop made me think: why aren't Orton and Cena regarded in that same "feel good story" sense? Before they became world champions, all four guys have had periods where they were booked to look rather ineffective against upper card guys at the time. . Because they were going to make it even before they made it. They spent most of their pre-WWE time in OVW, getting paid by WWE. Then once they hit the main roster, they paid dues as low-midcard talent for their first year or so, then skyrocketed afterwards. There was never any question as to whether or not they would be main eventers, they are the epitome of the WWE-cookie cutter syndrome. In other words, their stories are the complete opposite of Punk and Bryan's.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Dec 20, 2011 12:48:50 GMT -5
It's not even the indy thing, because Benoit/Guerrero at Wrestlemania 20 and the Hardy Brothers as the WWE and ECW champs also got the "feel good moment." It's just that Orton and Cena are both practically 10 time champions. Seeing the two pose together just isn't anything special because of how long the duo have been in the title scene. Benoit/Guerrero is pretty similar really. They might not have been indy legends (mostly b/c there weren't any real indy's to speak of during that time) but they had both been through ECW, Japan, and the part of WCW that could actually wrestle. It's almost certainly the path that Bryan and Punk would have taken, if that path had been available to them when they were starting out. Matt and Jeff is a bit different because while they were basically WWE products, they were also never expected to make it as far as they did. They were a couple of small guys in a tag team. It took them like 10 years to finally get some heavyweight gold, so it was a feel good story in that sense. Orton/Cena never had to claw their way to the top, at least not on camera. They were basically on top since day one.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Dec 20, 2011 13:03:24 GMT -5
It's not even the indy thing, because Benoit/Guerrero at Wrestlemania 20 and the Hardy Brothers as the WWE and ECW champs also got the "feel good moment." It's just that Orton and Cena are both practically 10 time champions. Seeing the two pose together just isn't anything special because of how long the duo have been in the title scene. Benoit/Guerrero is pretty similar really. They might not have been indy legends (mostly b/c there weren't any real indy's to speak of during that time) but they had both been through ECW, Japan, and the part of WCW that could actually wrestle. It's almost certainly the path that Bryan and Punk would have taken, if that path had been available to them when they were starting out. Matt and Jeff is a bit different because while they were basically WWE products, they were also never expected to make it as far as they did. They were a couple of small guys in a tag team. It took them like 10 years to finally get some heavyweight gold, so it was a feel good story in that sense. Orton/Cena never had to claw their way to the top, at least not on camera. They were basically on top since day one. And how was CM Punk less "on top since day one" than Orton or Cena? Orton was basically random third-generation guy for most of his first year in the company, and wasn't really presented as having any upside until joining Evolution at the head of his second year. Cena, similarly, was pretty much in Ryder's position until WordLife got wind under its wings. Compare CM Punk, who was presented as one of the diamonds of the ECW brand and a future main event player almost from day one. Admittedly, their careers took far different paths, with Punk suffering from some severe yo-yo booking and Cena staying on top from WrestleMania 21 to this year, but looking at all of their day ones, all of their first years alone, CM Punk's was far more promising than either of theirs, Cena's especially
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Dec 20, 2011 13:06:21 GMT -5
I don't about the "never had to claw their way" stuff.
Even Cena and Orton are different in that regard.
Just off interviews, while all the vets loved Orton from the beginning, it was the opposite for Cena. HHH, Flair, and HBK have all said that they didn't think Cena could cut it, until they actually got the chance to work with him. Cena confirmed it too.
And they all were brutally honest with Cena too, flat out telling him he stunk. Hell, HHH and HBK did that on Cena's own DVD.
Thats way more direct than some of things Punk considered slights against him.
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Turd Ferguson
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Post by Turd Ferguson on Dec 20, 2011 13:32:19 GMT -5
The difference is that Punk and D Bryan were loved by the fans and were elevated because of it.
Cena and Orton, regardless of how hard they worked, or how much they sacrificed, were picked by the office.
It all boils down to who did the annointing, not how hard they work.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 20, 2011 13:33:10 GMT -5
And how was CM Punk less "on top since day one" than Orton or Cena? Orton was basically random third-generation guy for most of his first year in the company, and wasn't really presented as having any upside until joining Evolution at the head of his second year. Cena, similarly, was pretty much in Ryder's position until WordLife got wind under its wings. Compare CM Punk, who was presented as one of the diamonds of the ECW brand and a future main event player almost from day one. Admittedly, their careers took far different paths, with Punk suffering from some severe yo-yo booking and Cena staying on top from WrestleMania 21 to this year, but looking at all of their day ones, all of their first years alone, CM Punk's was far more promising than either of theirs, Cena's especially I agree with this. Punk got hype packages when he debuted. Cena and Orton debuted as jobbers. Punk had also been given multiple titles. He was not some guy getting squashed on the C-Show for 5 years.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 20, 2011 13:58:09 GMT -5
Yeah, that's another thing with Punk: prior to MITB 2011, he was already Hall of Fame bound kayfabe-wise, with more titles and major angles than many of his predecesors, not to mention a slew of merchandise. His "New York Yankees" argument towards Cena was, in essence, basically a rich kid trying to challenge a slightly richer kid on the playground of a snobby prep school.
The only time he ever came close to true "misuse" was his lousy 2010. Most of that was due in part to Nexus becoming the focal point of that year, and thus he was bound to get lost in the shuffle. Had it not been for that, I bet we'd have seen Masked Punk and the SES booked a lot stronger.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Dec 20, 2011 14:05:18 GMT -5
The difference is that Punk and D Bryan were loved by the fans and were elevated because of it. Cena and Orton, regardless of how hard they worked, or how much they sacrificed, were picked by the office. It all boils down to who did the annointing, not how hard they work. And again, thats not true, as Cena was turned face by the fans, and got to that first title off fan reaction. If anything they held back on his title win so it'd happen at Mania where it should have happened. He was the most over guy on Smackdown while staying in the US title scene prior to that.
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