|
Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 20, 2011 14:06:19 GMT -5
Benoit/Guerrero is pretty similar really. They might not have been indy legends (mostly b/c there weren't any real indy's to speak of during that time) but they had both been through ECW, Japan, and the part of WCW that could actually wrestle. It's almost certainly the path that Bryan and Punk would have taken, if that path had been available to them when they were starting out. Matt and Jeff is a bit different because while they were basically WWE products, they were also never expected to make it as far as they did. They were a couple of small guys in a tag team. It took them like 10 years to finally get some heavyweight gold, so it was a feel good story in that sense. Orton/Cena never had to claw their way to the top, at least not on camera. They were basically on top since day one. And how was CM Punk less "on top since day one" than Orton or Cena? Orton was basically random third-generation guy for most of his first year in the company, and wasn't really presented as having any upside until joining Evolution at the head of his second year. Cena, similarly, was pretty much in Ryder's position until WordLife got wind under its wings. Compare CM Punk, who was presented as one of the diamonds of the ECW brand and a future main event player almost from day one. Admittedly, their careers took far different paths, with Punk suffering from some severe yo-yo booking and Cena staying on top from WrestleMania 21 to this year, but looking at all of their day ones, all of their first years alone, CM Punk's was far more promising than either of theirs, Cena's especially THANK YOU. I really don't see how people can say that Punk wasn't groomed for greatness when he first came onto WWE's main roster. I remember the dude got a pretty big push on ECW, even after Heyman left, then on his first night on Raw, he became World Heavyweight Champ. Yeah, he's been booked oddly during the past couple of years but to say that he never got a chance is just untrue.
|
|
Turd Ferguson
Hank Scorpio
John Cena: Colossal Douche
Posts: 7,402
|
Post by Turd Ferguson on Dec 20, 2011 14:13:53 GMT -5
The difference is that Punk and D Bryan were loved by the fans and were elevated because of it. Cena and Orton, regardless of how hard they worked, or how much they sacrificed, were picked by the office. It all boils down to who did the annointing, not how hard they work. And again, thats not true, as Cena was turned face by the fans, and got to that first title off fan reaction. If anything they held back on his title win so it'd happen at Mania where it should have happened. He was the most over guy on Smackdown while staying in the US title scene prior to that. I'll give you that. I shouldn't have ragelumped Cena in with Orton. Cena AFTER he won the title was the lame guy, not Cena before WM. However, it wasn't long after that when the CENA SUCKS chants started. But I stick to my guns with Randy. Only now, after 7 years in the spotlight does he really get the massive amounts of love.
|
|
|
Post by rapidfire187 on Dec 20, 2011 14:24:51 GMT -5
Benoit/Guerrero is pretty similar really. They might not have been indy legends (mostly b/c there weren't any real indy's to speak of during that time) but they had both been through ECW, Japan, and the part of WCW that could actually wrestle. It's almost certainly the path that Bryan and Punk would have taken, if that path had been available to them when they were starting out. Matt and Jeff is a bit different because while they were basically WWE products, they were also never expected to make it as far as they did. They were a couple of small guys in a tag team. It took them like 10 years to finally get some heavyweight gold, so it was a feel good story in that sense. Orton/Cena never had to claw their way to the top, at least not on camera. They were basically on top since day one. And how was CM Punk less "on top since day one" than Orton or Cena? Orton was basically random third-generation guy for most of his first year in the company, and wasn't really presented as having any upside until joining Evolution at the head of his second year. Cena, similarly, was pretty much in Ryder's position until WordLife got wind under its wings. Compare CM Punk, who was presented as one of the diamonds of the ECW brand and a future main event player almost from day one. Admittedly, their careers took far different paths, with Punk suffering from some severe yo-yo booking and Cena staying on top from WrestleMania 21 to this year, but looking at all of their day ones, all of their first years alone, CM Punk's was far more promising than either of theirs, Cena's especially The only reason Orton didn't get further during his first year is because he was injured not too long after he debuted. He came back from injury and joined Evolution and really never looked back. And no, Cena was never in Ryder's position. Cena debuted by taking Angle to his limit, and later getting a win over Jericho. The rapper gimmick didn't come much later. Both Cena and Orton were in a solid position on the card within a year of their debuts. I see what you're trying to argue, that Punk didn't have to fight very hard in WWE either. And to that point, you are correct. Punk has had it pretty good in WWE. But Orton won his first World title 4 years after he started training to become a wrestler. CM Punk won his first World title 8 years after his first Indy appearances. For comparison's sake, it also took Steve Austin 8 years to win his first world championship. EDIT: I would also like to add that the difference is more than just the timeline there. Orton was pretty much given a WWE spot with very little experience. He learned to wrestle in a WWE ring. He was groomed as championship material from the day that he first laced up his boots. And he was given that opportunity mostly because of his father. Punk and Bryan did things the traditional way and made their own name before WWE came calling. If you don't see how that's different then...well...read it again and again until you understand.
|
|
|
Post by rapidfire187 on Dec 20, 2011 14:30:22 GMT -5
And how was CM Punk less "on top since day one" than Orton or Cena? Orton was basically random third-generation guy for most of his first year in the company, and wasn't really presented as having any upside until joining Evolution at the head of his second year. Cena, similarly, was pretty much in Ryder's position until WordLife got wind under its wings. Compare CM Punk, who was presented as one of the diamonds of the ECW brand and a future main event player almost from day one. Admittedly, their careers took far different paths, with Punk suffering from some severe yo-yo booking and Cena staying on top from WrestleMania 21 to this year, but looking at all of their day ones, all of their first years alone, CM Punk's was far more promising than either of theirs, Cena's especially THANK YOU. I really don't see how people can say that Punk wasn't groomed for greatness when he first came onto WWE's main roster. I remember the dude got a pretty big push on ECW, even after Heyman left, then on his first night on Raw, he became World Heavyweight Champ. Yeah, he's been booked oddly during the past couple of years but to say that he never got a chance is just untrue. Jeez, I never said that he was never given a chance. The question in this thread is "how is Cena/Orton different from Punk/Bryan" and I think I explained it pretty damn well. You guys are reading between the lines and jumping to your own conclusions. Anybody that says Punk was never given a chance by WWE, is full of shit. Punk has been treated very well by WWE, aside from some odd booking. I can even make the same argument for Bryan because while he's been treated like a jobber for most of his time in the company, at least he's been on TV unlike the real jobbers.
|
|
|
Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 20, 2011 14:41:18 GMT -5
THANK YOU. I really don't see how people can say that Punk wasn't groomed for greatness when he first came onto WWE's main roster. I remember the dude got a pretty big push on ECW, even after Heyman left, then on his first night on Raw, he became World Heavyweight Champ. Yeah, he's been booked oddly during the past couple of years but to say that he never got a chance is just untrue. Jeez, I never said that he was never given a chance. The question in this thread is "how is Cena/Orton different from Punk/Bryan" and I think I explained it pretty damn well. You guys are reading between the lines and jumping to your own conclusions. Anybody that says Punk was never given a chance by WWE, is full of s***. Punk has been treated very well by WWE, aside from some odd booking. I can even make the same argument for Bryan because while he's been treated like a jobber for most of his time in the company, at least he's been on TV unlike the real jobbers. If you didn't say that Punk wasn't treated well by WWE, then I wasn't referring to you. No need to get testy about it. If Punk was treated well in WWE, What IS the difference between them and Punk? Punk, much like Cena and Orton did as you stated in your original post, paid his dues on ECW then quickly moved up the ranks before becoming World Heavyweight Champ 2 years after his debut on ECW. I can see how people can make the argument for Daniel Bryan since he really hasn't booked all that well before becoming champ but with Punk, literally the only difference is Punk worked the indies for years before coming to WWE. I really don't see how Punk is the opposite of Cena and Orton.
|
|
Tiger Maskooo
Samurai Cop
I cant hear you over the sound of how much im tiger masking
Posts: 2,384
|
Post by Tiger Maskooo on Dec 20, 2011 14:50:27 GMT -5
And how was CM Punk less "on top since day one" than Orton or Cena? Orton was basically random third-generation guy for most of his first year in the company, and wasn't really presented as having any upside until joining Evolution at the head of his second year. Cena, similarly, was pretty much in Ryder's position until WordLife got wind under its wings. Compare CM Punk, who was presented as one of the diamonds of the ECW brand and a future main event player almost from day one. Admittedly, their careers took far different paths, with Punk suffering from some severe yo-yo booking and Cena staying on top from WrestleMania 21 to this year, but looking at all of their day ones, all of their first years alone, CM Punk's was far more promising than either of theirs, Cena's especially THANK YOU. I really don't see how people can say that Punk wasn't groomed for greatness when he first came onto WWE's main roster. I remember the dude got a pretty big push on ECW, even after Heyman left, then on his first night on Raw, he became World Heavyweight Champ. Yeah, he's been booked oddly during the past couple of years but to say that he never got a chance is just untrue. Heyman groomed him for greatness. Then he got his winning streak ended by hardcore holly and was placed in a feud in which he jobbed to morrison forever that he only won because john wellnessed. Then when he won the world title his first ppv defense was a double dq and then he lost the title without even getting pinned. Won the tag titles with kofi then lost them on a house show. Held the ic belt and did like nothing with it,dropped it. Won MITB,got momentum then jobbed to undertaker. Then like 2 ppvs later was in a dark match. Feuded with a ref. Then from like june to june went through I believe a year long ppv losing streak. Even this year youve had shit like the kevin nash feud. His career in wwe has been the very definition of start and stop.
|
|
|
Post by rapidfire187 on Dec 20, 2011 14:53:19 GMT -5
Jeez, I never said that he was never given a chance. The question in this thread is "how is Cena/Orton different from Punk/Bryan" and I think I explained it pretty damn well. You guys are reading between the lines and jumping to your own conclusions. Anybody that says Punk was never given a chance by WWE, is full of s***. Punk has been treated very well by WWE, aside from some odd booking. I can even make the same argument for Bryan because while he's been treated like a jobber for most of his time in the company, at least he's been on TV unlike the real jobbers. If you didn't say that Punk wasn't treated well by WWE, then I wasn't referring to you. No need to get testy about it. If Punk was treated well in WWE, What IS the difference between them and Punk? Punk, much like Cena and Orton did as you stated in your original post, paid his dues on ECW then quickly moved up the ranks before becoming World Heavyweight Champ 2 years after his debut on ECW. I can see how people can make the argument for Daniel Bryan since he really hasn't booked all that well before becoming champ but with Punk, literally the only difference is Punk worked the indies for years before coming to WWE. I really don't see how Punk is the opposite of Cena and Orton. Eh, I assumed you were talking about my post since you quoted a reply to my post... That whole "worked the indies for years before coming to WWE" thing is the difference. That's a pretty major difference. Again, it's not a matter of how well WWE has treated anybody, it's a matter of how long and hard they had to work to get to the top. Cena and Orton had it a little easier. They didn't have a hard time getting to WWE, and were expected to be the future of WWE before they even debuted. Hell, I was reading about The Prototype in RAW magazine back in like 2000. There's no anger going on here, at least not on my part. I don't see any reason to defend Cena or Orton. But facts are facts. We're a lot more proud of Punk and Bryan because they took a harder rode to get to where they are. There are not many other WWE/World champions that can say they got there by busting their ass on the indies and in Japan. Almost every other champion got there through WWE Development.
|
|
|
Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 20, 2011 14:57:59 GMT -5
If you didn't say that Punk wasn't treated well by WWE, then I wasn't referring to you. No need to get testy about it. If Punk was treated well in WWE, What IS the difference between them and Punk? Punk, much like Cena and Orton did as you stated in your original post, paid his dues on ECW then quickly moved up the ranks before becoming World Heavyweight Champ 2 years after his debut on ECW. I can see how people can make the argument for Daniel Bryan since he really hasn't booked all that well before becoming champ but with Punk, literally the only difference is Punk worked the indies for years before coming to WWE. I really don't see how Punk is the opposite of Cena and Orton. Eh, I assumed you were talking about my post since you quoted a reply to my post... That whole "worked the indies for years before coming to WWE" thing is the difference. That's a pretty major difference. Again, it's not a matter of how well WWE has treated anybody, it's a matter of how long and hard they had to work to get to the top. Cena and Orton had it a little easier. They didn't have a hard time getting to WWE, and were expected to be the future of WWE before they even debuted. Hell, I was reading about The Prototype in RAW magazine back in like 2000. There's no anger going on here, at least not on my part. I don't see any reason to defend Cena or Orton. But facts are facts. We're a lot more proud of Punk and Bryan because they took a harder rode to get to where they are. There are not many other WWE/World champions that can say they got there by busting their ass on the indies and in Japan. Almost every other champion got there through WWE Development. " Alright, there was no anger on my part either. I agree that the whole "Working the indies" thing is a major difference and yes, Punk and DB do deserve credit. So yeah, I actually agree with you.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,200
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 20, 2011 14:59:00 GMT -5
If you didn't say that Punk wasn't treated well by WWE, then I wasn't referring to you. No need to get testy about it. If Punk was treated well in WWE, What IS the difference between them and Punk? Punk, much like Cena and Orton did as you stated in your original post, paid his dues on ECW then quickly moved up the ranks before becoming World Heavyweight Champ 2 years after his debut on ECW. I can see how people can make the argument for Daniel Bryan since he really hasn't booked all that well before becoming champ but with Punk, literally the only difference is Punk worked the indies for years before coming to WWE. I really don't see how Punk is the opposite of Cena and Orton. Eh, I assumed you were talking about my post since you quoted a reply to my post... That whole "worked the indies for years before coming to WWE" thing is the difference. That's a pretty major difference. Again, it's not a matter of how well WWE has treated anybody, it's a matter of how long and hard they had to work to get to the top. Cena and Orton had it a little easier. They didn't have a hard time getting to WWE, and were expected to be the future of WWE before they even debuted. Hell, I was reading about The Prototype in RAW magazine back in like 2000. There's no anger going on here, at least not on my part. I don't see any reason to defend Cena or Orton. But facts are facts. We're a lot more proud of Punk and Bryan because they took a harder rode to get to where they are. There are not many other WWE/World champions that can say they got there by busting their ass on the indies and in Japan. Almost every other champion got there through WWE Development. That's because back then (going back to guys like Hogan, Savage, Michaels, Bret), the equivalent "the indies" were still decently televised territories like Stampede, AWA, "Memphis Wrestling", and World Class. Cena came up at a weird time, with (Original) ECW on the verge of death (and just plain dead by the time he hit the WWE roster itself) and RoH not around just yet either. As for Orton (and Rock for that matter), I'm not going to hold being 3rd gen against them. Personally, I don't care where someone was before, though. I know that's not exactly a majority opinion on the internet, but it is what it is.
|
|
Tiger Maskooo
Samurai Cop
I cant hear you over the sound of how much im tiger masking
Posts: 2,384
|
Post by Tiger Maskooo on Dec 20, 2011 15:04:05 GMT -5
Eh, I assumed you were talking about my post since you quoted a reply to my post... That whole "worked the indies for years before coming to WWE" thing is the difference. That's a pretty major difference. Again, it's not a matter of how well WWE has treated anybody, it's a matter of how long and hard they had to work to get to the top. Cena and Orton had it a little easier. They didn't have a hard time getting to WWE, and were expected to be the future of WWE before they even debuted. Hell, I was reading about The Prototype in RAW magazine back in like 2000. There's no anger going on here, at least not on my part. I don't see any reason to defend Cena or Orton. But facts are facts. We're a lot more proud of Punk and Bryan because they took a harder rode to get to where they are. There are not many other WWE/World champions that can say they got there by busting their ass on the indies and in Japan. Almost every other champion got there through WWE Development. That's because back then (going back to guys like Hogan, Savage, Michaels, Bret), the equivalent "the indies" were still decently televised territories like Stampede, AWA, "Memphis Wrestling", and World Class. I think hes referring to the post territory era though.
|
|
|
Post by rapidfire187 on Dec 20, 2011 15:13:22 GMT -5
Eh, I assumed you were talking about my post since you quoted a reply to my post... That whole "worked the indies for years before coming to WWE" thing is the difference. That's a pretty major difference. Again, it's not a matter of how well WWE has treated anybody, it's a matter of how long and hard they had to work to get to the top. Cena and Orton had it a little easier. They didn't have a hard time getting to WWE, and were expected to be the future of WWE before they even debuted. Hell, I was reading about The Prototype in RAW magazine back in like 2000. There's no anger going on here, at least not on my part. I don't see any reason to defend Cena or Orton. But facts are facts. We're a lot more proud of Punk and Bryan because they took a harder rode to get to where they are. There are not many other WWE/World champions that can say they got there by busting their ass on the indies and in Japan. Almost every other champion got there through WWE Development. That's because back then (going back to guys like Hogan, Savage, Michaels, Bret), the equivalent "the indies" were still decently televised territories like Stampede, AWA, "Memphis Wrestling", and World Class. Cena came up at a weird time, with (Original) ECW on the verge of death (and just plain dead by the time he hit the WWE roster itself) and RoH not around just yet either. As for Orton (and Rock for that matter), I'm not going to hold being 3rd gen against them. Personally, I don't care where someone was before, though. I know that's not exactly a majority opinion on the internet, but it is what it is. Yea, exactly...I'm not holding anything against Orton or Cena. I'm not taking anything away from them (not that I could anyway lol). I'm just explaining why people feel more pride for Punk and Bryan winning the titles. We always feel more proud when somebody from outside of the WWE-machine manages to actually make it in WWE. It's like seeing your favorite obscure band work their way up and win a Grammy or something. You can't help but feel a sense of pride there.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 20, 2011 15:26:22 GMT -5
Jeez, I never said that he was never given a chance. The question in this thread is "how is Cena/Orton different from Punk/Bryan" and I think I explained it pretty damn well. You guys are reading between the lines and jumping to your own conclusions. Anybody that says Punk was never given a chance by WWE, is full of s***. Punk has been treated very well by WWE, aside from some odd booking. I can even make the same argument for Bryan because while he's been treated like a jobber for most of his time in the company, at least he's been on TV unlike the real jobbers. Actually, my question was more "why haven't Cena and Orton gained the same level of respect from diehard fans". I already know they're overexposed now, I was talking about in general. I will admit I do have a bias in play here, as Cena is my #1 favorite guy in the company with Punk somewhere around #5 or #6 (I certainly don't hate him). As a Cena mark, I tend to root for the performer to win the fans' respect, because kayfabe wise he's already at the top and there's nowhere to go but down after that.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,200
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 20, 2011 15:41:25 GMT -5
Jeez, I never said that he was never given a chance. The question in this thread is "how is Cena/Orton different from Punk/Bryan" and I think I explained it pretty damn well. You guys are reading between the lines and jumping to your own conclusions. Anybody that says Punk was never given a chance by WWE, is full of s***. Punk has been treated very well by WWE, aside from some odd booking. I can even make the same argument for Bryan because while he's been treated like a jobber for most of his time in the company, at least he's been on TV unlike the real jobbers. Actually, my question was more "why haven't Cena and Orton gained the same level of respect from diehard fans". I already know they're overexposed now, I was talking about in general. I will admit I do have a bias in play here, as Cena is my #1 favorite guy in the company with Punk somewhere around #5 or #6 (I certainly don't hate him). As a Cena mark, I tend to root for the performer to win the fans' respect, because kayfabe wise he's already at the top and there's nowhere to go but down after that. It's projection. Die-hards are projecting themselves onto Punk (and to a lesser extent D Bryan). They never projected onto Cena or Orton. Me, I've never been the type to be vicarious as such.
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Dec 20, 2011 16:04:50 GMT -5
And how was CM Punk less "on top since day one" than Orton or Cena? Orton was basically random third-generation guy for most of his first year in the company, and wasn't really presented as having any upside until joining Evolution at the head of his second year. Cena, similarly, was pretty much in Ryder's position until WordLife got wind under its wings. Compare CM Punk, who was presented as one of the diamonds of the ECW brand and a future main event player almost from day one. Admittedly, their careers took far different paths, with Punk suffering from some severe yo-yo booking and Cena staying on top from WrestleMania 21 to this year, but looking at all of their day ones, all of their first years alone, CM Punk's was far more promising than either of theirs, Cena's especially THANK YOU. I really don't see how people can say that Punk wasn't groomed for greatness when he first came onto WWE's main roster. I remember the dude got a pretty big push on ECW, even after Heyman left, then on his first night on Raw, he became World Heavyweight Champ. Yeah, he's been booked oddly during the past couple of years but to say that he never got a chance is just untrue. for that matter, Daniel Bryan got the Kurt Angle push so it's not like he wasn't being groomed from the start either. if you don't believe me just look at what the rest of the Nexus guys are up to these days. that said, as a guy whhoose been a fan of these 2 since they were on the indies and wanted them to succeed, it is nice too see them both holding some serious hardware.
|
|
|
Post by rapidfire187 on Dec 20, 2011 18:33:52 GMT -5
THANK YOU. I really don't see how people can say that Punk wasn't groomed for greatness when he first came onto WWE's main roster. I remember the dude got a pretty big push on ECW, even after Heyman left, then on his first night on Raw, he became World Heavyweight Champ. Yeah, he's been booked oddly during the past couple of years but to say that he never got a chance is just untrue. for that matter, Daniel Bryan got the Kurt Angle push so it's not like he wasn't being groomed from the start either. if you don't believe me just look at what the rest of the Nexus guys are up to these days. that said, as a guy whhoose been a fan of these 2 since they were on the indies and wanted them to succeed, it is nice too see them both holding some serious hardware. How did Bryan get a Kurt Angle push? Angle won a bunch of titles including the WWF title in his first year. Daniel Bryan has been with the company for over a year now and has spent most of that time on his back, and getting ripped on by Michael Cole with 1 title reign. Yea, he's more successful than the rest of Nexus, including the guy that won NXT, but that doesn't mean he's got anything close to the godlike push Angle received.
|
|
|
Post by Piccolo on Dec 20, 2011 19:10:04 GMT -5
Jeez, I never said that he was never given a chance. The question in this thread is "how is Cena/Orton different from Punk/Bryan" and I think I explained it pretty damn well. You guys are reading between the lines and jumping to your own conclusions. Anybody that says Punk was never given a chance by WWE, is full of s***. Punk has been treated very well by WWE, aside from some odd booking. I can even make the same argument for Bryan because while he's been treated like a jobber for most of his time in the company, at least he's been on TV unlike the real jobbers. Actually, my question was more "why haven't Cena and Orton gained the same level of respect from diehard fans". I already know they're overexposed now, I was talking about in general. I will admit I do have a bias in play here, as Cena is my #1 favorite guy in the company with Punk somewhere around #5 or #6 (I certainly don't hate him). As a Cena mark, I tend to root for the performer to win the fans' respect, because kayfabe wise he's already at the top and there's nowhere to go but down after that. Some people are more appealing to some, and others are more appealing to others. Why doesn't my favorite actor get universal acclaim? Because opinions are subjective.
|
|