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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2012 4:22:27 GMT -5
He was asked his opinion and he gave it. To me, it comes off as though he's being controversial with his opinion for the sake of it. I mean, after 7 years of these Nolan films, everyone and their dog knows it's not "just a comic book film". It's noir set in a comic book universe. This guy has a film coming out, and suddenly he has an opinion on one of the most poplar films ever that gets people talking about him. Quelle surprise.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Aug 17, 2012 5:21:11 GMT -5
He was asked his opinion and he gave it. To me, it comes off as though he's being controversial with his opinion for the sake of it. I mean, after 7 years of these Nolan films, everyone and their dog knows it's not "just a comic book film". It's noir set in a comic book universe. This guy has a film coming out, and suddenly he has an opinion on one of the most poplar films ever that gets people talking about him. Quelle surprise. Pretty much. Plus, yes, he was asked his opinion and gave it. Doesn't stop his opinion from being misinformed and ignorant.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Aug 17, 2012 9:18:53 GMT -5
Inception was pretentious trash, and so's this guy's opinion in this case. How was Inception pretentious? It just had one concept it used to give the heist a cooler setting and then used its own setting to end in an ambiguous note. It's not like the movie tried to hammer you with pseudo-philosophical crap or anything, it was just an action movie with a quirky setting. Like, my general rule is that if the number of fight scenes and explosions outnumbers the pseudo-philosophical crap, a movie isn't pretentious.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 17, 2012 9:58:49 GMT -5
I can understand why he doesn't think of those movies are "art" but he doesn't exactly make the best arguments in support that statement, which is fine as it's clearly a instant response rather than a well thought out essay.
However the fixation on the cape is baffling, I can't claim to be an expert on high art but I'm sure many examples of it feature costumes (and concepts) that are just as ridiculous, I wonder if he had a bad experience with a cape?
Fixating on the more outlandish or lowbrow elements isn't the best idea in general, many examples of "elevated art" from Shakespeare to opera are aimed at broad audiences but work on many different levels, the same could be said of everything from Batman to 1984 to The Simpsons.
I suppose it all comes down to "what is art?" that is something that's been argued about for centuries without any real conclusion.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 17, 2012 10:04:46 GMT -5
*shrugs* I agree with a lot of what he said. I'm actually pretty shocked that there are people upset that Dark Knight Rises isn't likely to get a Best Picture nom or that the Dark Knight was a groundbreaking piece of cinema. They weren't the most traditional superhero movies, but I don't think they advanced the art of film making like I've heard people say. And given how butthurt some of the Nolan fans reacted when critics dared to say Rises didn't have the aura or feel that TDK had (which it doesn't), I'm not surprised Conenberg is being raked over the coals for this.
I don't agree with the "Comic books are for kids" statement though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2012 10:21:42 GMT -5
I'll never understand people who write off given art forms - be it animation, comics, or whatever - as being specifically for kids. It's like saying that live-action film is strictly for adults, which just sounds preposterous.
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Post by Non Banjoble Tokens on Aug 17, 2012 11:07:54 GMT -5
Inception was pretentious trash, and so's this guy's opinion in this case. Well, David Cronenberg knows a thing or two about pretentious trash, given that he's responsible for such a great deal of it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2012 11:07:58 GMT -5
He's right in that Memento is probably still Nolan's best work. The Batman trilogy were definitely fun movies, but the idea that any of them really deserve a 'best pic' nomination is pretty outlandish. They're pretty kitschy if you ask me, but still really fun movies that are well made. DKR was my favorite of the bunch.
However he's clearly mis-informed about the medium of comics and the superhero genre. While some do appeal to kids, a great deal of comics are mainly for adults or mature readers and can deal with some pretty high brow stuff.
The "stupid cape" reference is a pretty harsh and reductive analysis of Nolan's films. They're not as pretentious as Cronenburg's films, but I'll agree that the the most ridiculous thing in the Nolan's Batman films is Batman himself.
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ronin705
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Post by ronin705 on Aug 17, 2012 11:17:40 GMT -5
Inception was pretentious trash, and so's this guy's opinion in this case. How was Inception pretentious? It just had one concept it used to give the heist a cooler setting and then used its own setting to end in an ambiguous note. It's not like the movie tried to hammer you with pseudo-philosophical crap or anything, it was just an action movie with a quirky setting. Like, my general rule is that if the number of fight scenes and explosions outnumbers the pseudo-philosophical crap, a movie isn't pretentious. While I do like your ratio system, I personally felt it was trying to hammer me down with all that extra. I just get pumped knowing the homey Leo's killing role after role , and am excited to see him and Jamie Foxx in Django Unchained
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Aug 17, 2012 11:37:46 GMT -5
Inception was pretentious trash, and so's this guy's opinion in this case. Well, David Cronenberg knows a thing or two about pretentious trash, given that he's responsible for such a great deal of it. Like what?
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Post by Michael Coello on Aug 17, 2012 11:55:19 GMT -5
You know, it's not exactly anything new to say how ridiculous Batman is compared to the contrast of the world Nolan created. Yahtzee said the same thing during his review of Arkham Asylum, how the scene with Dent and Gordon on the roof in TDK could be some serious crime drama scene until Batman sashays into the scene and ruins the effect.
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The Punisher
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Post by The Punisher on Aug 17, 2012 12:26:25 GMT -5
Cronenberg is directing a movie with Robert Pattinson in it. His opinion is therefore invalid.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 17, 2012 12:33:01 GMT -5
Cronenberg is directing a movie with Robert Pattinson in it. His opinion is therefore invalid. Considering the last teenage heart-throb of Pattinson's magnitude turned his career into being a rather legitimate and respected actor, including starring in the movie that got Nolan quite a few Oscars, Pattinson deserves a chance.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 17, 2012 12:34:13 GMT -5
Cronenberg is directing a movie with Robert Pattinson in it. His opinion is therefore invalid. Turns out Pattinsons a pretty decent actor.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 17, 2012 12:40:32 GMT -5
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Glitch
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Post by Glitch on Aug 17, 2012 12:52:39 GMT -5
So we're being trolled?
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 17, 2012 12:56:05 GMT -5
To give Cronenberg some leeway, I think the use of "comic book" simply boils down to "superhero story"...and like it or not, most of the conceits in superhero stories are adolescent in nature, even if many ARE aimed at adults.
That said, the pooh-poohing of escapist cinema bugs me. Cinema does not just involve the story being told; it's everything from visuals to camera angles, lighting to sound editing, how a shot is framed or how edits are used to create an atmosphere, etc. In these regards, Nolan's Batman work has been superlative.
If one wants to delve into the actual story being told, it's a fair discussion to have, but I do find it very wrong when somebody dismisses an escapist or archetypal story offhand for being "too simple", "too childish", or whatever. Doing so effectively says "it doesn't matter that this work managed to speak to a lot of people in a meaningful way, it doesn't live up to my standards, therefore it isn't art", which is silly.
There's nothing wrong with a director who prefers challenging an audience; directors like that are absolutely needed, as they keep the art form dynamic and consistently introduce new ideas. Some of those ideas float, some don't, but it's always comforting to know there'll be somebody out there who'll at least give it a try.
But no medium has to be that way in order to exist as art, or even as high art. Just because a work offers a world with clearly set morality or familiar archetypes doesn't mean it doesn't offer them at a high, exceptionally executed level, and doing that deserves recognition.
People used to be able to point at Star Wars and say "this is only popular thanks to it's effects", yet here we stand decades later and it's still a film that speaks to countless millions and earns high marks for it's actual crafting as a film. Is it simple? Pretty much; you're not really hiding that when you divide your characters between a "Dark Side" Empire and a "Light Side" Rebellion.
But not every film needs to offer a highly complex look into the human psyche, or interpretative sequences that represent an aspect of the human condition...films like that ARE needed, but it's silly to act like little else counts as art.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 17, 2012 13:48:06 GMT -5
The thing is, Nolan's Batman's movies aren't simple escapism for the most part, at least, not in the same vein as other popcorn flicks like Avengers. Those are fine, and they deserve to be judged on the merits of other popcorn flicks, but the Nolan Verse tries to treat Batman with more realism and weight, and the fans talk up the movies as doing that. Hence why a lot more people think DKR should get a best picture nomination than Avengers. So they should be looked at in that light.
And to that end, I think Cronenberg has a point. There are some things that are inherently ridiculous in a superhero universe, but we accept because it's a superhero universe and isn't meant to be realistic. Hence why no one complained that Bruce Banner wasn't vaporized or didn't die of cancer. Vigilantes in comic book can operate outside the law in a way that they never would be able to in the real world. Super elaborate villain plans ala the Joker in TDK work in comic book movies, but not much in an actual crime drama.
Trying to play it completely straight, and having fans that play it completely straight, allows for scrutiny, and every super hero is at least somewhat ridiculous in their own right. People try to twist it, saying they're really character stories or are film noir, but when you play it 100% straight as a deep, psychological movie, having your main lead be a guy who dresses like a bat and a woman who wears fake cat ears can become an actual issue with the movie. It's like Michael Coello said, saying Batman doesn't fit into the Nolan-verse isn't new, all the actual costumed characters stick out at times.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 17, 2012 13:50:25 GMT -5
Nonsensical opinion
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Magnus the Magnificent
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Aug 17, 2012 14:16:06 GMT -5
Comic books are for kids. I mean, we are all children at heart, aren't we?
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