JLAJRC
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,317
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Post by JLAJRC on Jan 3, 2013 16:53:50 GMT -5
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,855
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Post by Dub H on Jan 3, 2013 17:14:24 GMT -5
My toughs: Man make me sick.
This is not even the issue about the friendship stuff.But reading some comments,people that say male friends just want to f***.
Society sickens me sometimes.
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Post by slappy on Jan 3, 2013 17:24:14 GMT -5
There are websites out there like "People of WalMart" that shame weird, strange, fat and/or ugly people. I don't see too much backlash against those sites.
The NGoOKC are just shaming sexism, racism, homophobia etc. It isn't a 'straight man = bad' website from what I've seen. They aren't shaming all nice guys or all guys who claim to be in the friendzone, just the ones that think they are owed sex like they have earned it from just being them.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Jan 3, 2013 17:28:51 GMT -5
This seems less like a "Friendzone/Nice Guy" article and more like a "Douches on OKCupid that don't understand women and yet they don't know why one won't give them the time of day" article. As someone who'd be considered a nice guy, being a nice guy isn't something you should look for a pat on the back for or flaunt like "I'm not an asshole! Give me sex!" You should be a nice guy because that's what you're supposed to do! Being chivalrous and respectful isn't something you do so women sleep with you, you do it because that's how it's supposed to be done!
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,937
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Post by BRV on Jan 3, 2013 17:32:09 GMT -5
This seems less like a "Friendzone/Nice Guy" article and more like a "Douches on OKCupid that don't understand women and yet they don't know why one won't give them the time of day" article. As someone who'd be considered a nice guy, being a nice guy isn't something you should look for a pat on the back for or flaunt like "I'm not an asshole! Give me sex!" You should be a nice guy because that's what you're supposed to do! Being chivalrous and respectful isn't something you do so women sleep with you, you do it because that's how it's supposed to be done! I'm reading it the same way. It's not so much a dig on the existence of the so-called "Friend Zone" but rather it's taking shots at the people who think that by holding a door for a girl or by giving them their jacket on a cold night entitles them to sex. While being chivalrous and a gentleman is a large part of the equation, it's not the entirety of the equation. The people being criticized in this article are those who believe that being a nice person directly leads to having sex and are baffled at any other notion.
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Dat Dude
Dennis Stamp
Wait, what?
Posts: 4,785
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Post by Dat Dude on Jan 3, 2013 17:59:29 GMT -5
My thoughts on the subject:
What do the easter bunny, Santa, and the friendzone have in common? They don't exist.
You're either her friend and have no interest in going out with her or you're her boyfriend.
There is no in-between. If you're attracted to her and she's available, ask her out FROM THE START! And if she's not available but you do want to go out with her (or if she declines you), don't hang around being a "friend". That is not a friendship. You can try and delude yourself that it is, but it isn't. Move on, cut your losses, ask out someone else you meet (no matter what you think there will always be someone else).
Don't ever label yourself as a nice guy. First off, being nice something your supposed to be, so you're impressing no one. Secondly, a girl may have dated a guy in the past who label himself a "nice guy" and through time found out he wasn't. So when a guy says that, alarms are going off in her head saying "I've seen this before. Never again". I'm pretty sure that's what happened to writer of this column.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 3, 2013 18:32:29 GMT -5
It's important to differentiate between being a genuinely nice guy and suffering from Nice Guy Syndrome. The latter aren't actually very nice people (as much as they'd claim otherwise) since they think they deserve sex or the woman's affection as a reward for being nice. If the woman doesn't return these unrequited feelings, you see their true colors. And it ain't pretty.
The latter is also what's being made fun of on that Tumblr.
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Post by Hakumental on Jan 3, 2013 18:38:13 GMT -5
Can't say I disagree. You do still run into this attitude with a lot of guys, and it's pretty pathetic.
That said -
Oh boy. I can only imagine the comments this article is getting.
Hugo was actually a professor of mine at PCC. He was a great teacher, really - I took both his available history courses and still have fond memories of what I learned. His real passion is feminism, though, and it was even back then. He blogged about it for years, but ever since he got a Facebook, it's been almost all he posts about there, too. He even organized and marched in a "SlutWalk" a couple years ago. Basically, he spent his whole online and offline existence becoming a "male voice for feminism", and for a while, he was a fairly prominent one.
All of this was fine and harmless until last year, when he kinda...sorta...admitted to having once attempted to murder his ex-girlfriend and kill himself while in a drug-induced stupor.
Combined with the already known admissions of having banged a couple of his previous female students, this was like watching somebody throw a match on a gasoline spill inside a brewery. I think there's still an online petition to get him fired from PCC, to say nothing of the calls to arrest him or exile him to a monastery in Tibet. (Only half-kidding.)
I don't have a dog in that fight, mind you, and it doesn't make what he's saying here any less relevant, but damned if the guy doesn't get the flames roaring.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Jan 3, 2013 18:50:53 GMT -5
My thoughts on the subject: What do the easter bunny, Santa, and the friendzone have in common? They don't exist. You're either her friend and have no interest in going out with her or you're her boyfriend. There is no in-between. If you're attracted to her and she's available, ask her out FROM THE START! And if she's not available but you do want to go out with her (or if she declines you), don't hang around being a "friend". That is not a friendship. You can try and delude yourself that it is, but it isn't. Move on, cut your losses, ask out someone else you meet (no matter what you think there will always be someone else). Don't ever label yourself as a nice guy. First off, being nice something your supposed to be, so you're impressing no one. Secondly, a girl may have dated a guy in the past who label himself a "nice guy" and through time found out he wasn't. So when a guy says that, alarms are going off in her head saying "I've seen this before. Never again". I'm pretty sure that's what happened to writer of this column. Thorougly agree with everything you said. All I can add is a very fitting quote I came across on Tumblr a while ago.
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Jan 3, 2013 19:01:01 GMT -5
That tumblr is amazing, as is Fedora's of OKCupid. Why do so many people wear Fedoras!?
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Post by "I'm Batman..." on Jan 3, 2013 20:07:32 GMT -5
I stopped reading after the second paragraph.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,011
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Post by nate5054 on Jan 3, 2013 20:19:27 GMT -5
While being chivalrous and a gentleman is a large part of the equation, it's not the entirety of the equation. The people being criticized in this article are those who believe that being a nice person directly leads to having sex and are baffled at any other notion. I guess there are people who believe that, but from my 20s POV (which is a decade old now) where I could have been classified as one of these guys it's not the perspective I had. For me it was more that I would have female acquaintances I was attracted to, but was far too shy/not confident/whatever you want to call it to tell them so. So in my mind I would try to be affectionate towards them to relay to them I wanted a romantic involvement, though from a neutral observer I was probably just being "nice" to them. So there is probably a communication disconnect going on with many guys in this situation. Sometimes I wonder if sitcoms and other media did me in that way since that was the way many of those characters got women interested in them. Could be nothing to that theory though. The one thing I'll say in defense of "nice" guys or psychotic self centered jerks or whatever you want to label them is that it's very difficult on the ego or self-esteem to hear women tell you that "all the men I date are jerks and I just wish I could find someone who makes me laugh or is polite or listens to me etc." but refuses to entertain the idea of going out with you since you believe you can fulfill all those requirements. That being said, I blame the guys in that situation who still continue to be around those women. If you are romantically interested in a woman (and vice-verse I guess) and the interest is not duplicated, at some point you are only torturing yourself by continuing the friendship in that vein hope "she'll see the light" or whatever.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 3, 2013 21:41:18 GMT -5
I'm glad that some people who aren't in agreement with the article on that page are at least commenting on it with a modicum of respect.
As much as I'm usually quick to pounce on the ridiculousness of the "friendzone" concept, I do agree that some distinctions can be made, given a few different circumstances. Many "nice guys" are young men who might still be learning about how to handle rejection and learning that sex isn't the end-all, be-all of existence (though it certainly is pretty great). Many of those young men also often have a tough time making distinctions between love, infatuation, or simply feeling lonely and just wanting somebody to like them. It's certainly tough to be high school/early college age and have all of that stuff in order.
The issue with that is that it's then incumbent upon the young man to come to grips with these realities and adjust to them. The fact of the matter is that they're not going to change: not every woman will be attracted to you no matter how nice or appealing you seem, the "love of your life" may simply be a girl you're having a passing crush on, and it's not anybody else's responsibility to get you to realize these things or take measures to improve yourself. If the guy doesn't take the initiative to learn from experience or make positive changes, the only person he can blame is himself.
I suppose I can muster a bit of sympathy for a guy who falls for a girl, has genuinely good intentions, but has his feelings abused. Perhaps he's even had some physical contact with the woman, but it's not what he's looking for. Even in such a situation, however, the guy has to come to grips with that reality and learn from it, not be a floor mat.
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"Magic" Mark Hurr
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Here, have some chili dogs
Not related to Phantasmo
Posts: 15,753
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Jan 3, 2013 21:57:36 GMT -5
Crazy stuff. I had to learn a looooong time ago that it's about being honest with yourself and whoever you are dealing with. People seem to learn the hard way and not evolve after acquiring new knowledge.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 3, 2013 22:57:15 GMT -5
Well, we can be fair to them, to a degree. The simple reality is that there are few things harder for any individual than facing that we each have shortcomings or unattractive qualities that some people don't mind, some people don't notice, but that other people have a hard time getting past. It's difficult both to recognize those less-than-optimal traits, and then it can be doubly difficult to act on improving ourselves.
Hell, here's a third layer of difficulty: realizing that even if you DO recognize your shortcomings and DO take actions to fix them...you're still not going to be attractive to everybody, or even to more than a small number of people. Them's the breaks.
I know how it feels: I've spent a few years now dropping 40-50 pounds and working hard to keep it off, I'm in grad school, I'm working two jobs and making a decent living in the process (including a job playing/singing music), I pay for a pretty decent apartment in a trendy place, I consider myself multi-talented, have a bunch of interests/hobbies, feel I can hold a conversation...all things I had to work for, many of which were things that at one time I had tough times doing and had to get myself to improve on.
You know how many women that gets me if I go out on a given night trying to strike up conversations?
Most often: none.
Them's the breaks. Take any one of those qualities I listed up there, and in somebody else's eyes there might be something in them that's not too appealing. I lost weight? Fine, but I'm still a pretty broad guy, still have a bit of a paunch in front, not every woman will be overly attracted to that. I go to grad school and have interests in things like politics, sociology, and law? Nice, but to them I might wind up coming off as pretentious, snooty, etc. I'm passionate about things like the arts, music and sports? Great, but fanboys aren't always much fun to be around. I can hold a conversation? Cool, but my tone might come off as overly sarcastic or dry at times, which can be a turnoff for many people.
Long story short, these are challenges, and they're not easy to overcome. We all fail at one time or another: few men go without having moments now and then when we might say "all women are crazy!" or something equally nonsensical in a fit of frustration or genuine hurt.
But as said before, these challenges are not the womens' responsibilities to handle: it's our own. It's tough to recognize your shortcomings, to do something about them, and then to realize that even your improvements might not be enough to appeal to most people...but nobody's going to take you by the hand and make it easier for you.
Make peace with that, and the challenges become much easier to live with.
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8.2.11/SAVIOR_NEZ
Don Corleone
Michael Nesmith, inventor of all you hold dear!
Posts: 1,534
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Post by 8.2.11/SAVIOR_NEZ on Jan 3, 2013 23:46:31 GMT -5
It seems like we've had a few "Friendzone" threads the last month, this is probably the best one. I didn't think the article was that great, but I appreciate the comments from you all more.
I've always been kind of back and forth on the "Friendzone" thing. The guys described in the article really don't garner much sympathy from me, but as HMARK described, guys with honorable intentions that genuinely like the girl, it can really suck when your crush isn't reciprocated. I've had times where I've been "Friendzoned" and the girl never talked to me again. That's always fun! But again, like HMARK said, there's a point where you have to get over it and get back out there.
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Post by Monster Under Your Bed on Jan 4, 2013 9:06:25 GMT -5
My thoughts on the subject: What do the easter bunny, Santa, and the friendzone have in common? They don't exist. You're either her friend and have no interest in going out with her or you're her boyfriend. There is no in-between. If you're attracted to her and she's available, ask her out FROM THE START! And if she's not available but you do want to go out with her (or if she declines you), don't hang around being a "friend". That is not a friendship. You can try and delude yourself that it is, but it isn't. Move on, cut your losses, ask out someone else you meet (no matter what you think there will always be someone else). Don't ever label yourself as a nice guy. First off, being nice something your supposed to be, so you're impressing no one. Secondly, a girl may have dated a guy in the past who label himself a "nice guy" and through time found out he wasn't. So when a guy says that, alarms are going off in her head saying "I've seen this before. Never again". I'm pretty sure that's what happened to writer of this column. These were lessons it took me a long time to understand, but I completely agree with everything you said.
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theryno665
Grimlock
wants a title underneath the stars
Kinda Homeless
Posts: 13,571
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Post by theryno665 on Jan 4, 2013 9:19:25 GMT -5
Crazy stuff. I had to learn a looooong time ago that it's about being honest with yourself and whoever you are dealing with. People seem to learn the hard way and not evolve after acquiring new knowledge. This. After I was rejected by the last girl I was interested, I didn't whine about being in the "friendzone". I looked at myself and tried to figure out why she said no, what I could've done differently so that I don't make the same mistakes again. I still haven't really figured it out but at least I tried to instead of just falling back on complaining and placing the blame on other people.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2013 11:03:39 GMT -5
I don't understand the whole "friendzone" thing. I've never been friendzoned, but it just sounds like another word for 'bitter'
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JLAJRC
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,317
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Post by JLAJRC on Jan 4, 2013 11:40:09 GMT -5
Something I've always wondered, is there a female version of the "friendzone?" You never hear about that. It's always the other way around. Surely, women have been turned down by guys.
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