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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Feb 14, 2013 22:07:32 GMT -5
Also, honestly, if I were to base it on the two God versions of the characters going at it...I'd still side with Goku. Superman tends to be more careful, more in control of himself to ensure nobody gets hurt. He'd likely still have this in mind while fighting Goku. Whereas Goku tries to do that, but tends to get caught up in the moment and forget about it, willing to take risks. Something like that would be the deciding factor in an otherwise fairly even battle. Supes holds back, until he meets someone who can take him putting in even a little effort. Goku can take it so Supes will actually try.
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Feb 14, 2013 22:09:47 GMT -5
Also, honestly, if I were to base it on the two God versions of the characters going at it...I'd still side with Goku. Superman tends to be more careful, more in control of himself to ensure nobody gets hurt. He'd likely still have this in mind while fighting Goku. Whereas Goku tries to do that, but tends to get caught up in the moment and forget about it, willing to take risks. Something like that would be the deciding factor in an otherwise fairly even battle. Supes holds back, until he meets someone who can take him putting in even a little effort. Goku can take it so Supes will actually try. Or, to put it famously: www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQabrSpKcJw&feature=player_detailpage#t=38s
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Post by mjolnir on Feb 14, 2013 22:11:05 GMT -5
Also, honestly, if I were to base it on the two God versions of the characters going at it...I'd still side with Goku. Superman tends to be more careful, more in control of himself to ensure nobody gets hurt. He'd likely still have this in mind while fighting Goku. Whereas Goku tries to do that, but tends to get caught up in the moment and forget about it, willing to take risks. Something like that would be the deciding factor in an otherwise fairly even battle. Supes holds back, until he meets someone who can take him putting in even a little effort. Goku can take it so Supes will actually try. You misunderstand, I'm not saying he wouldn't try, I'm saying he would still hold back some. These are two men that can literally, at that point, destroy and create dozens upon dozens of worlds. Superman wouldn't risk a single life though in fighting Goku, Goku...if he gets excited enough, he'd get risky with it. That's where the deciding difference would come in, if one were to really pick any even powered Superman and Goku. Goku's Saiyan nature, as subdued as it is compared to the rest of his race, is still there & would be what leads him to victory.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2013 23:02:49 GMT -5
The thing about Goku taking risks though, is he always had the dragonballs to fall back on post fight to fix whatever happens.
Superman, and I can't believe I'm defending him, doesn't have that. Hence his constant care to hold back.
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Post by mjolnir on Feb 14, 2013 23:18:14 GMT -5
Which, if we're talking God Mode versions, Goku still has...in himself.
If we're talking any other period where they're on even ground, he still has them.
And, oh, I get why one did one thing and the other didn't. But I still think part of it was also Goku's Saiyan nature coming through too when presented with a good fight.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Feb 14, 2013 23:28:06 GMT -5
The thing is his Saiyan nature can also be his undoing. Because of his Saiyan blood, he always has to fight his opponents at their best. He'll egg Supes into going all out and when Supes does.........
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Post by mjolnir on Feb 14, 2013 23:32:39 GMT -5
If they're both God Mode...it'll be a draw? I mean, that's a best case scenario. I think Goku might actually win even there, as he's now a magic based God. And, we all know what magic does to Supes, even a Godly Supes.
If it's pretty much any other time in Goku's timeline in Z, save for if he's facing SA Superman,...well, I'd say he still wins as much as I hate to say it. Superman's OP at the best of times, but I honestly don't think he's as broken of a character as Goku is. Regardless of what Screw Attack's faux science would lead you to believe.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2013 23:41:38 GMT -5
And lets not forget being a saiyan Goku gets stronger with every near death experience.
So even if Goku lost the first 500 times but survivved with both going all out each time...ZENKAI!...and we all saw on namek how big a Zenkai Goku can recieve.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Feb 14, 2013 23:41:53 GMT -5
The thing about Goku taking risks though, is he always had the dragonballs to fall back on post fight to fix whatever happens. Superman, and I can't believe I'm defending him, doesn't have that. Hence his constant care to hold back. The earth dragonballs have limitations though so I guess it depends on whether he wants to take the chance to go all-out on earth considering the amount of damage they've already had to undo. Shenlong on earth can't keep fixing things up forever. Once is the limit I think. Namek? Sure(Though I really wish those had gone away with the Grand Elder after he died. Those dragonballs were really overpowered and didn't need to be used again after bringing Piccolo,Kuririn and the others back. ). Earth? Not as much of a back up plan in comparison to the Namek set.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Feb 15, 2013 0:08:55 GMT -5
If they're both God Mode...it'll be a draw? I mean, that's a best case scenario. I think Goku might actually win even there, as he's now a magic based God. And, we all know what magic does to Supes, even a Godly Supes. If it's pretty much any other time in Goku's timeline in Z, save for if he's facing SA Superman,...well, I'd say he still wins as much as I hate to say it. Superman's OP at the best of times, but I honestly don't think he's as broken of a character as Goku is. Regardless of what Screw Attack's faux science would lead you to believe. It isn't faux science. It is math.
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Post by mjolnir on Feb 15, 2013 0:14:01 GMT -5
If they're both God Mode...it'll be a draw? I mean, that's a best case scenario. I think Goku might actually win even there, as he's now a magic based God. And, we all know what magic does to Supes, even a Godly Supes. If it's pretty much any other time in Goku's timeline in Z, save for if he's facing SA Superman,...well, I'd say he still wins as much as I hate to say it. Superman's OP at the best of times, but I honestly don't think he's as broken of a character as Goku is. Regardless of what Screw Attack's faux science would lead you to believe. It isn't faux science. It is math. Considering they're trying to apply math and science to two fictional characters that's very worlds bend the rules of our reality when it's plot convenient... Yeah, it's faux science. Decent argument, but still flawed in alot of ways.
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Post by Cela on Feb 15, 2013 0:47:24 GMT -5
Goku loses.
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Post by Free Hat on Feb 15, 2013 9:29:05 GMT -5
Jesus, we spend way too much time arguing about this. Do you guys realise that this is like the fifth thread we've had on this subject in the last 6 months alone?
But who am I kidding, I've got nothing better to do right now, so I'll elaborate on why I think Screwattack's "math" was wrong. What I think they failed to take into account is that power boosts in DBZ usually don't just result in the characters becoming 2 or 3 times stronger than they were before, but rather 10, 20 or even upwards of 100 times stronger. For example, Goku at the beginning of the Saiyan saga has a max power level of just over 400. At this level, he's already more than capable of destroying an object the size of the moon. We know this because Master Roshi already did it with less than half of that power. After training with King Kai, Goku's base power level has increased 20x to 8000. With the Kaio-Ken, he can push himself to 32,000, an 80x increase. By the time he faces Freeza, his base power is already well into the millions. While I believe the last stated power level in the manga is the 1 million we're given for Freeza's second form, there's absolutely no reason to believe the multiplication effect wouldn't hold true into the later sagas. This is why Screwattack's decision to disregard power levels is such a cop out. Their original purpose wasn't just to show that "power levels are meaningless," as they put it, but to give a general idea of each character's strength relative to one another, as well as to where they were before.
F***, I've spent way too much time thinking about this.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Feb 15, 2013 10:08:53 GMT -5
Jesus, we spend way too much time arguing about this. Do you guys realise that this is like the fifth thread we've had on this subject in the last 6 months alone? But who am I kidding, I've got nothing better to do right now, so I'll elaborate on why I think Screwattack's "math" was wrong. What I think they failed to take into account is that power boosts in DBZ usually don't just result in the characters becoming 2 or 3 times stronger than they were before, but rather 10, 20 or even upwards of 100 times stronger. For example, Goku at the beginning of the Saiyan saga has a max power level of just over 400. At this level, he's already more than capable of destroying an object the size of the moon. We know this because Master Roshi already did it with less than half of that power. After training with King Kai, Goku's base power level has increased 20x to 8000. With the Kaio-Ken, he can push himself to 32,000, an 80x increase. By the time he faces Freeza, his base power is already well into the millions. While I believe the last stated power level in the manga is the 1 million we're given for Freeza's second form, there's absolutely no reason to believe the multiplication effect wouldn't hold true into the later sagas. This is why Screwattack's decision to disregard power levels is such a cop out. Their original purpose wasn't just to show that "power levels are meaningless," as they put it, but to give a general idea of each character's strength relative to one another, as well as to where they were before. F***, I've spent way too much time thinking about this. But the power level IS pointless. I mean how many times have we seen a villain in DB look at the scouter, go, "Oh, your power level is lower than mine, that's cute.", then get their ass beat by the "weaker" heroes? And as you just said all it really did was show the relative strength of the DB characters. Power levels would have no bearing when comparing someone that was not from the DB world, because anyone not from the DB world has no power level.
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Post by Free Hat on Feb 15, 2013 10:42:54 GMT -5
Jesus, we spend way too much time arguing about this. Do you guys realise that this is like the fifth thread we've had on this subject in the last 6 months alone? But who am I kidding, I've got nothing better to do right now, so I'll elaborate on why I think Screwattack's "math" was wrong. What I think they failed to take into account is that power boosts in DBZ usually don't just result in the characters becoming 2 or 3 times stronger than they were before, but rather 10, 20 or even upwards of 100 times stronger. For example, Goku at the beginning of the Saiyan saga has a max power level of just over 400. At this level, he's already more than capable of destroying an object the size of the moon. We know this because Master Roshi already did it with less than half of that power. After training with King Kai, Goku's base power level has increased 20x to 8000. With the Kaio-Ken, he can push himself to 32,000, an 80x increase. By the time he faces Freeza, his base power is already well into the millions. While I believe the last stated power level in the manga is the 1 million we're given for Freeza's second form, there's absolutely no reason to believe the multiplication effect wouldn't hold true into the later sagas. This is why Screwattack's decision to disregard power levels is such a cop out. Their original purpose wasn't just to show that "power levels are meaningless," as they put it, but to give a general idea of each character's strength relative to one another, as well as to where they were before. F***, I've spent way too much time thinking about this. But the power level IS pointless. I mean how many times have we seen a villain in DB look at the scouter, go, "Oh, your power level is lower than mine, that's cute.", then get their ass beat by the "weaker" heroes? And as you just said all it really did was show the relative strength of the DB characters. Power levels would have no bearing when comparing someone that was not from the DB world, because anyone not from the DB world has no power level. The scouters are only wrong because the Z-Warriors have the ability to suppress their ki, which throws them off. It can be assumed that for characters who lack this ability (like Freeza), or for characters who are fully powered up (as when Goku uses his 4x Kaio-Ken against Vegeta) that the readings are accurate, so I think the multiplication effect is still valid. The reason I bring it up to begin with is because when you look at the arguments people usually put forward as to why Superman would win, it usually comes down to something like "dude can move planets around." But when you consider that Goku was likely capable of destroying the Earth at his LOWEST level in DBZ, and that his strength between that time and the end of the Buu saga literally multiplies by billions, it seems ridiculous to assume that Goku couldn't do this shit as well. Factor in that Superman needs to hang out inside the sun to even reach that point, and it just seems like an easy victory for Goku.
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Post by darbus alan on Feb 15, 2013 11:18:17 GMT -5
If it was just straight post-Crisis Supes vs. non-Super Saiyan Goku, I'd go with Superman. If Goku can go to Super Saiyan, especially 3, then he wins easily.
That said, Pre-Crisis Superman > all. His superpower is to make up new superpowers.
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Post by Red Impact on Feb 15, 2013 11:26:34 GMT -5
At his height, prior to new 52, Superman wasn't that different from Silver Age Supes in terms of power. The only difference was that he couldn't make up powers on the spot, but over time, all the limits that Byrnes put on Superman were washed away. The only thing stopping Superman from flying faster, hitting harder, and so forth is the fact that he cares so much about collateral damage. Goku, who also sees himself as a protector, wouldn't exploit this, and since he wants to fight his opponent at his best, they'd find some place where they'd both unleash and that Superman would be at his full power. Since Superman's full power has never been quantified, we have no reason to believe that he couldn't smash planets at any time if he really tried, he's just not trying/not needing to.
Which is really why these questions are mostly silly. They don't define the limits of these character's power in relation to real world elements, but in relation to the challenges they face. Goku never had cause to have to move a planet, he has the Dragon Balls if he needs to change the Earth, so he never does. He could juggle them for all we know. Superman never really unleashes his full power (moving the planet would be as much about finesse as pure strength. Trying to move too fast would just kill everyone on the surface anyways), so we don't really get to see his true upper limits.
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Post by Yami Daimao on Feb 15, 2013 12:36:40 GMT -5
Jesus, we spend way too much time arguing about this. Do you guys realise that this is like the fifth thread we've had on this subject in the last 6 months alone? But who am I kidding, I've got nothing better to do right now, so I'll elaborate on why I think Screwattack's "math" was wrong. What I think they failed to take into account is that power boosts in DBZ usually don't just result in the characters becoming 2 or 3 times stronger than they were before, but rather 10, 20 or even upwards of 100 times stronger. For example, Goku at the beginning of the Saiyan saga has a max power level of just over 400. At this level, he's already more than capable of destroying an object the size of the moon. We know this because Master Roshi already did it with less than half of that power. After training with King Kai, Goku's base power level has increased 20x to 8000. With the Kaio-Ken, he can push himself to 32,000, an 80x increase. By the time he faces Freeza, his base power is already well into the millions. While I believe the last stated power level in the manga is the 1 million we're given for Freeza's second form, there's absolutely no reason to believe the multiplication effect wouldn't hold true into the later sagas. This is why Screwattack's decision to disregard power levels is such a cop out. Their original purpose wasn't just to show that "power levels are meaningless," as they put it, but to give a general idea of each character's strength relative to one another, as well as to where they were before. F***, I've spent way too much time thinking about this. But the power level IS pointless. I mean how many times have we seen a villain in DB look at the scouter, go, "Oh, your power level is lower than mine, that's cute.", then get their ass beat by the "weaker" heroes? And as you just said all it really did was show the relative strength of the DB characters. Power levels would have no bearing when comparing someone that was not from the DB world, because anyone not from the DB world has no power level. ScrewAttack even acknowledged that the main purpose of power levels were to show how unreliable they are. To put it simply: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsMSiVn6vpQThank you, Vegeta.
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Celgress
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Post by Celgress on Feb 15, 2013 12:40:55 GMT -5
Spoiler: Cena Wins
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Post by Free Hat on Feb 15, 2013 12:59:57 GMT -5
But the power level IS pointless. I mean how many times have we seen a villain in DB look at the scouter, go, "Oh, your power level is lower than mine, that's cute.", then get their ass beat by the "weaker" heroes? And as you just said all it really did was show the relative strength of the DB characters. Power levels would have no bearing when comparing someone that was not from the DB world, because anyone not from the DB world has no power level. ScrewAttack even acknowledged that the main purpose of power levels were to show how unreliable they are. To put it simply: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsMSiVn6vpQThank you, Vegeta. I've already addressed this point, twice in fact, but I'm sure everyone will continue to ignore that. But to respond to Red Impact's post, if it becomes impossible to define the upper limits of either character in real terms, you would necessarily have to assume they were equal, correct? In that case I would have to concede victory to Superman, as I said in one of the 47 other debates we've had on the subject. The stamina weakness inherent in Super Saiyan 3 would be Goku's undoing.
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