Yami Daimao
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Yami Daimao on Feb 15, 2013 13:38:41 GMT -5
ScrewAttack even acknowledged that the main purpose of power levels were to show how unreliable they are. To put it simply: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsMSiVn6vpQThank you, Vegeta. I've already addressed this point, twice in fact, but I'm sure everyone will continue to ignore that. I must have missed it. I came into this page, and Koda's post caught my eye, so I posted. Coming from someone that this has happened to many times before, I know how you feel, so I apologize.
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Post by Free Hat on Feb 15, 2013 14:03:27 GMT -5
I've already addressed this point, twice in fact, but I'm sure everyone will continue to ignore that. I must have missed it. I came into this page, and Koda's post caught my eye, so I posted. Coming from someone that this has happened to many times before, I know how you feel, so I apologize. There's no need to apologise, but since you missed it, my point was that Screwattack was wrong. The original point of the power levels was not to prove that they were useless, but to give the reader a general idea of the character's relative strengths. Otherwise there'd have been no reason to continue with the concept past the Saiyan saga. Toriyama only gave up on the idea after the numbers became so large that it was getting cumbersome. Outside of a few cases, power levels can't be taken as 100% gospel, but they're useful in determining just how much a character's strength grows over the course of the series, and thus can't be ignored either.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Feb 15, 2013 14:18:33 GMT -5
I must have missed it. I came into this page, and Koda's post caught my eye, so I posted. Coming from someone that this has happened to many times before, I know how you feel, so I apologize. There's no need to apologise, but since you missed it, my point was that Screwattack was wrong. The original point of the power levels was not to prove that they were useless, but to give the reader a general idea of the character's relative strengths. Otherwise there'd have been no reason to continue with the concept past the Saiyan saga. Toriyama only gave up on the idea after the numbers became so large that it was getting cumbersome. Outside of a few cases, power levels can't be taken as 100% gospel, but they're useful in determining just how much a character's strength grows over the course of the series, and thus can't be ignored either. You don't REALLY need power levels to show how strong characters had become over the course of the series. I mean just look at say One Piece and Naruto, two series heavily influenced by Dragonball. Neither one has power levels, and yet it is still quite clear the strength progression the characters have. So even in their purpose power levels are pointless.
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Post by Free Hat on Feb 15, 2013 14:33:08 GMT -5
There's no need to apologise, but since you missed it, my point was that Screwattack was wrong. The original point of the power levels was not to prove that they were useless, but to give the reader a general idea of the character's relative strengths. Otherwise there'd have been no reason to continue with the concept past the Saiyan saga. Toriyama only gave up on the idea after the numbers became so large that it was getting cumbersome. Outside of a few cases, power levels can't be taken as 100% gospel, but they're useful in determining just how much a character's strength grows over the course of the series, and thus can't be ignored either. You don't REALLY need power levels to show how strong characters had become over the course of the series. I mean just look at say One Piece and Naruto, two series heavily influenced by Dragonball. Neither one has power levels, and yet it is still quite clear the strength progression the characters have. So even in their purpose power levels are pointless. They're useful when it becomes impossible to quantify strength progression in real terms. I've never seen Naruto or One Piece, but I'm going to assume that neither of them has any characters capable of blowing up planets. Once you get to that point, there aren't a lot of places left to go, and so the numbers become all you have.
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Yami Daimao
Patti Mayonnaise
Really, really wants to zigazig ah!
Posts: 31,784
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Post by Yami Daimao on Feb 15, 2013 14:39:03 GMT -5
I must have missed it. I came into this page, and Koda's post caught my eye, so I posted. Coming from someone that this has happened to many times before, I know how you feel, so I apologize. There's no need to apologise, but since you missed it, my point was that Screwattack was wrong. The original point of the power levels was not to prove that they were useless, but to give the reader a general idea of the character's relative strengths. Otherwise there'd have been no reason to continue with the concept past the Saiyan saga. Toriyama only gave up on the idea after the numbers became so large that it was getting cumbersome. Outside of a few cases, power levels can't be taken as 100% gospel, but they're useful in determining just how much a character's strength grows over the course of the series, and thus can't be ignored either. There's some truth there, but I still think the exclusion of power levels didn't change anything from the battle in the long run. I think they still did a great job showing and explaining Goku's strength and power without power levels. I think it was either Koda or Red Impact who said it, but including power levels would not have made much sense since it would have only applied to Goku, and not Superman. They went with a more universal measuring system. With that said, looking back at the Death Battle, I have a feeling they purposely put the odds in Superman's favor, because the backlash for Superman losing would have been MUCH stronger than Goku losing. They gave a couple of scenarios on which Goku could have won, but shrugged it off as "less likely to happen just because". I thought that was rather odd.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Feb 15, 2013 14:45:00 GMT -5
You don't REALLY need power levels to show how strong characters had become over the course of the series. I mean just look at say One Piece and Naruto, two series heavily influenced by Dragonball. Neither one has power levels, and yet it is still quite clear the strength progression the characters have. So even in their purpose power levels are pointless. They're useful when it becomes impossible to quantify strength progression in real terms. I've never seen Naruto or One Piece, but I'm going to assume that neither of them has any characters capable of blowing up planets. Once you get to that point, there aren't a lot of places left to go, and so the numbers become all you have. There are some strong characters in both series that can do a shit ton of devastation. Now granted we haven't seen them try to destroy planets yet, but that is because there aren't aliens in their series, so all the fighting tales place on one planet. If that planet is destroyed everyone dies.
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Post by Free Hat on Feb 15, 2013 19:28:33 GMT -5
There's no need to apologise, but since you missed it, my point was that Screwattack was wrong. The original point of the power levels was not to prove that they were useless, but to give the reader a general idea of the character's relative strengths. Otherwise there'd have been no reason to continue with the concept past the Saiyan saga. Toriyama only gave up on the idea after the numbers became so large that it was getting cumbersome. Outside of a few cases, power levels can't be taken as 100% gospel, but they're useful in determining just how much a character's strength grows over the course of the series, and thus can't be ignored either. There's some truth there, but I still think the exclusion of power levels didn't change anything from the battle in the long run. I think they still did a great job showing and explaining Goku's strength and power without power levels. I think it was either Koda or Red Impact who said it, but including power levels would not have made much sense since it would have only applied to Goku, and not Superman. They went with a more universal measuring system. With that said, looking back at the Death Battle, I have a feeling they purposely put the odds in Superman's favor, because the backlash for Superman losing would have been MUCH stronger than Goku losing. They gave a couple of scenarios on which Goku could have won, but shrugged it off as "less likely to happen just because". I thought that was rather odd. As I said earlier, I brought up the power levels and the multiplication effect to emphasise that if Goku is already capable of destroying a moon with a power level of only 400, it's not unreasonable to assume that the 400 billion or wherever the hell he's at by the end of DBZ would easily make him a match for a fully powered Superman. But admittedly it's all speculative. In fairness to Screwattack, part of my initial objection to their conclusions stemmed from the fact that I just hadn't realised how far the limitations imposed on post-crisis Superman had eroded over the years. So now I'm not entirely opposed to the idea that they'd be equal in power. I'm still not willing to accept that Superman is stronger, however.
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Post by Red Impact on Feb 15, 2013 19:50:57 GMT -5
ScrewAttack even acknowledged that the main purpose of power levels were to show how unreliable they are. To put it simply: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsMSiVn6vpQThank you, Vegeta. I've already addressed this point, twice in fact, but I'm sure everyone will continue to ignore that. But to respond to Red Impact's post, if it becomes impossible to define the upper limits of either character in real terms, you would necessarily have to assume they were equal, correct? In that case I would have to concede victory to Superman, as I said in one of the 47 other debates we've had on the subject. The stamina weakness inherent in Super Saiyan 3 would be Goku's undoing. I think if we put them anywhere near equal levels, Superman wins, just due to versatility. If Superman really, really thought he was in danger of dying, he'd do what he did to Manchester Black. Find the part of the brain that gives Goku control over his chi, or his zenkai, and use the heat vision to give him a partial lobotomy. Given Saiyans have pretty human physiology, that'd likely be an option. Basically, I think if Goku doesn't squash him, and I don't think he does, then Superman would win.
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Banecat
Don Corleone
Speak of the devil and he shall appear
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Post by Banecat on Feb 15, 2013 20:15:07 GMT -5
Ultimately Goku's power level is irrelevant. Goku can cast Spirit Bomb. I know people like to ignore GT but after being reverted to a child with a DB power level, his galactic powered Spirit Bomb destroyed whomever the bad guy and whatever his insane power level would have been at the time (quadrillions maybe?). If Goku could tap into the multiverse his Spirit Bomb would be near infinite power.
Quite honestly though these two would never fight to the death, it would be an exhibition match at most. Which I would probably put in Superman's favor without Goku using Spirit Bomb (I doubt he'd ever use Spirit Bomb on another Good aligned character).
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
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Post by CMWaters on Feb 15, 2013 20:28:55 GMT -5
Ultimately Goku's power level is irrelevant. Goku can cast Spirit Bomb. I know people like to ignore GT but after being reverted to a child with a DB power level, his galactic powered Spirit Bomb destroyed whomever the bad guy and whatever his insane power level would have been at the time (quadrillions maybe?). If Goku could tap into the multiverse his Spirit Bomb would be near infinite power. Quite honestly though these two would never fight to the death, it would be an exhibition match at most. Which I would probably put in Superman's favor without Goku using Spirit Bomb (I doubt he'd ever use Spirit Bomb on another Good aligned character). Even if he did, Superman wouldn't have enough evil in his heart for it to be effective enough to work on him, I think.
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Banecat
Don Corleone
Speak of the devil and he shall appear
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Post by Banecat on Feb 15, 2013 20:36:18 GMT -5
There's this scenario also, Goku could instant transmission them both to a planet with a red star and destroy an incredibly weakened Superman.
There is honestly too many variables to gauge who could win in a fight between these two. So if I could change my vote I'd change it to Cena.
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Post by Red Impact on Feb 15, 2013 20:45:27 GMT -5
There's this scenario also, Goku could instant transmission them both to a planet with a red star and destroy an incredibly weakened Superman. There is honestly too many variables to gauge who could win in a fight between these two. So if I could change my vote I'd change it to Cena. Isn't in his character though. He'll let opponents power up so that he can beat them at his best. That'd also require more strategy than Goku tends to employ (and would require him to know of Superman's physiology), he's pretty straight forward.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 20:56:52 GMT -5
^ I would give Goku a bit more credit then that when it comes to strategy which is probably his must underrated talent I guess you can say.
Goku is one to catch on pretty quickly...realizing frieza can't sense KI etc.
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Banecat
Don Corleone
Speak of the devil and he shall appear
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Post by Banecat on Feb 15, 2013 21:04:59 GMT -5
Isn't in his character though. He'll let opponents power up so that he can beat them at his best. That'd also require more strategy than Goku tends to employ (and would require him to know of Superman's physiology), he's pretty straight forward. Yeah but the argument is a death match between both of them. Who's the face, who's the heel? Whomever is the face has Deus Ex Machina on their side. For a death match both of them should be evil and use all their skills to the most advantage.
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Post by Free Hat on Feb 16, 2013 6:34:00 GMT -5
Ultimately Goku's power level is irrelevant. Goku can cast Spirit Bomb. I know people like to ignore GT but after being reverted to a child with a DB power level, his galactic powered Spirit Bomb destroyed whomever the bad guy and whatever his insane power level would have been at the time (quadrillions maybe?). If Goku could tap into the multiverse his Spirit Bomb would be near infinite power. Quite honestly though these two would never fight to the death, it would be an exhibition match at most. Which I would probably put in Superman's favor without Goku using Spirit Bomb (I doubt he'd ever use Spirit Bomb on another Good aligned character). Even if he did, Superman wouldn't have enough evil in his heart for it to be effective enough to work on him, I think. More importantly, it's completely useless in a one on one battle. It takes too long to charge, and it's only ever worked when he's had his friends around to distract his opponent. Superman isn't stupid enough to just let Goku stand around for ten minutes preparing a potentially devastating attack.
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Post by mjolnir on Feb 16, 2013 7:24:23 GMT -5
"Hey Krillian"
"Oh, hey! What's up, Goku?!"
"Well, I could use your help."
"Sure! What do you need, my oldest friend?!"
"See, I'm fighting this guy who is as equally godly as I am and I need someone to distract him so I can create a Spirit Bomb."
"/Whimpers/"
In all seriousness though, while Superman might be known as a boy scout, the comics and even alot of media like the cartoons and shows have stated he isn't pure. There is very much a real dark side to the guy, and if hit with the Spirit Bomb, it would effect him.
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Post by Red Impact on Feb 17, 2013 1:23:02 GMT -5
Isn't in his character though. He'll let opponents power up so that he can beat them at his best. That'd also require more strategy than Goku tends to employ (and would require him to know of Superman's physiology), he's pretty straight forward. Yeah but the argument is a death match between both of them. Who's the face, who's the heel? Whomever is the face has Deus Ex Machina on their side. For a death match both of them should be evil and use all their skills to the most advantage. If you completely remove their personality and personal codes out of it, you're not really pitting the characters against each other. Their personalities are what makes them who they are, and it plays deeply into their strengths and weaknesses.
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Banecat
Don Corleone
Speak of the devil and he shall appear
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Post by Banecat on Feb 17, 2013 9:06:01 GMT -5
If you completely remove their personality and personal codes out of it, you're not really pitting the characters against each other. Their personalities are what makes them who they are, and it plays deeply into their strengths and weaknesses. Then once again it would NEVER be a death match then. BTW There are plenty of possible reasons for personality switches (Captain Ginyu, magic, etc for example).
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Post by Red Impact on Feb 17, 2013 13:17:07 GMT -5
There are plenty of possible ways to give them the means to fight to the death without stripping their primary personality traits as well. If you don't take personality into account, then it's really not even a fight between them, but two people with similar superpowers. Their own moral codes and personalities are what make the characters who they are, and what makes them both so good at using their respective abilities. I doubt either Goku or Superman would be as adept with their powers if it was, say, Captain Ginyu trying to use them, or someone else mindcontrolling them.
And I think the means of getting them to fight would be fairly irrelevant too. It doesn't even have to be a fight to the death, it'd be over as soon as one knocked out the other anyways.
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