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Post by Wolf Hawkfield no1 NZ poster on May 11, 2013 18:16:50 GMT -5
or Ben Kingsley played an Indian man (both roles being of real people Eh you do realize why no one complained about him playing Gandhi was because Kingsley himself is half Indian and his birth name was Krishna Pandit Bhanji. But that had to be one of the laziest cracked articles I've read in a long time.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2013 18:22:56 GMT -5
That's the other thing, I feel that the Johnny Storm casting or the Electro and Kingpin castings weren't some director saying "I'm going to make this character black... Just cause." These all seem like they went with the best possible choice despite of their skin color, which is what you should be aiming for when making a movie in general.
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Post by tigermaskxxxvii on May 11, 2013 18:38:29 GMT -5
I hated hated hated that article. just inflammatory bullshit that doesn't even bother to be fair to the COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE arguments of people who think Johnny Storm should actually look like Johnny Storm. this isn't a minor character like Heimdall or a villain like Electro or Kingpin whose race is unimportant, it's an iconic superhero whose always been a white blonde guy in every other adaptation, comics films or otherwise, and who popular culture will always see that way. it'd be the same if they got an asian guy to play Superman or a samoan to be Batman. people don't hate this possible casting decision because they're racist, they hate it because it's very difficult to make sense of a black guy being the brother of a white girl without adding silly adoption elements into the background that needlessly complicate things, and it also smacks of tokenism. I would just like to state for the record that a Samoan Batman would be AWESOME! Cast Stone Cold as a villain (Mr. Freeze perhaps?) just so he can be run over by the Batmobile. to the background that needlessly complicate things, and it also smacks of tokenism. I'm just curious, is it really that complicated to say "my mom is white and my dad is black" or "My mom got divorced and remarried"? It's not like it'd take an entire movie to explain how two races could possibly be related by blood. I wanna see a "Batman Begins"-esque movie that explains this and only this and the last scene is Johnny turning to Sue and saying "Come on, we're gonna be late for the shuttle mission! We can't keep Reed and Ben waiting!"
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on May 11, 2013 20:07:41 GMT -5
The problem is that it didn't bring a good message- the author, in their attempt to bring it to a wide audience's attention, just didn't do it right- by including arguments that have a good reason for "why" it's a bad move [like the fact that Sue and Jonny Storm are siblings] as the same as outright racism, and doesn't even mention there being better options [if Ben Grimm was made an African-American in the new form, it would have done far better: He's not related to anyone else in the group, was on due to his skill and his being Richards's friend and partner for the work, and adding a racial change to Grimm would have been an inspired choice for his character in modern times.]
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on May 11, 2013 20:24:39 GMT -5
I hated hated hated that article. just inflammatory bullshit that doesn't even bother to be fair to the COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE arguments of people who think Johnny Storm should actually look like Johnny Storm. this isn't a minor character like Heimdall or a villain like Electro or Kingpin whose race is unimportant, it's an iconic superhero whose always been a white blonde guy in every other adaptation, comics films or otherwise, and who popular culture will always see that way. it'd be the same if they got an asian guy to play Superman or a samoan to be Batman. people don't hate this possible casting decision because they're racist, they hate it because it's very difficult to make sense of a black guy being the brother of a white girl without adding silly adoption elements into the background that needlessly complicate things, and it also smacks of tokenism. I would just like to state for the record that a Samoan Batman would be AWESOME! Cast Stone Cold as a villain (Mr. Freeze perhaps?) just so he can be run over by the Batmobile. I did it for the Mondo. I did it for the Generation X. (Yes, I know I'm mixing Marvel and DC, but how many Samoan superheroes can any of YOU think of?
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on May 11, 2013 20:33:36 GMT -5
The problem is that it didn't bring a good message- the author, in their attempt to bring it to a wide audience's attention, just didn't do it right- by including arguments that have a good reason for "why" it's a bad move [like the fact that Sue and Jonny Storm are siblings] as the same as outright racism, and doesn't even mention there being better options [if Ben Grimm was made an African-American in the new form, it would have done far better: He's not related to anyone else in the group, was on due to his skill and his being Richards's friend and partner for the work, and adding a racial change to Grimm would have been an inspired choice for his character in modern times.] Yes, I agree the message was not presented in a good manner. It was completely hamfisted and nearly equated any opposition someone may have to these casting decisions as "lol stupid racist!" Also, it is worth adding that the author exposing racism in the nerd community isn't exactly groundbraking work. Yes, racism exists among nerds just like it exists among any large group. It shouldn't be a shocker for anyone who has seen any amount of diversity in a population.
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Post by HMARK Center on May 11, 2013 20:48:16 GMT -5
I'll just quote a comment from someone there who explained why such decisions are counter-protective and genuinely insulting far better than I could have myself: Seriously, casting a Black actor as a White character is basically taking the White character and putting him in blackface. How is that inclusive? Aw man, come on, that's a very disingenuous argument. Maybe it's the history teacher in me, but such an argument just ignores so much social science and industry history that it can't stand up. As mentioned before, the character of Johnny Storm has never been defined by his ethnicity; his character is entirely malleable in that regard. Now, a film biopic of somebody like, I don't know, Lyndon B. Johnson? Yes, it'd be a tad weird to cast an African-American actor in the role, especially given some of LBJ's most significant legislative accomplishments and personal background. Luke Skywalker and Han Solo? Whether they're black, white, Latino, Asian, Icelandic, it literally makes no difference in their characterizations whatsoever, because none of those ethnicities actually exist in the Star Wars universe (yes, Lando is black, but he's not black in the terms of our own society's racial definitions), and nothing about their characters change if you alter their skin colors. Meanwhile, many minority superheroes over the years have been largely defined by their skin color/cultural background. The 70's and 80's had Superfriends lineups with such luminaries as Apache Chief and Samurai, truly pandering attempts at being multi-cultural that smacked of little more than tokenism. These characters WERE defined by what ethnicities they were. Plus, all of it ignores, again, Hollywood's "white-washing" history, and the relative dearth of roles available to minorities in comparison to whites. Instantly brings to mind John Wayne playing Genghis Khan, among other equally egregious examples. Good God, the first ever talkie was The Jazz Singer. Those were usually characters where getting the ethnicity right WAS important, unlike with characters like Johnny Storm or Luke Skywalker, where it means absolutely nothing beyond "that's how I picture them due to my exposure to previous iterations of these characters".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2013 21:17:09 GMT -5
![](http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/proneedham/green-lantern-green-arrow2.jpg) One of the few times, imo, racism has been handled well in comics. Not saying it has much to do with the article but this was an important moment, imo.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on May 11, 2013 21:23:07 GMT -5
It'd help. Bane's blows to the head wouldn't work. The only drawback would be wider Bat-Pants and the fact he'd fight crime bare-foot.
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on May 11, 2013 21:25:02 GMT -5
It'd help. Bane's blows to the head wouldn't work. The only drawback would be wider Bat-Pants and the fact he'd fight crime bare-foot. Plus if he did lose his parents, chances are he'd have 15 close relatives to offer support; hell they're probably in the superhero business too.
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Post by Joe Neglia on May 11, 2013 21:44:41 GMT -5
The problem is that it didn't bring a good message- the author, in their attempt to bring it to a wide audience's attention, just didn't do it right- by including arguments that have a good reason for "why" it's a bad move [like the fact that Sue and Jonny Storm are siblings] as the same as outright racism, and doesn't even mention there being better options [if Ben Grimm was made an African-American in the new form, it would have done far better: He's not related to anyone else in the group, was on due to his skill and his being Richards's friend and partner for the work, and adding a racial change to Grimm would have been an inspired choice for his character in modern times.] Okay, but see, even then, you're playing into his argument. Why pick the one character who's race isn't discernable as a superhero? Once he becomes the thing, it wouldn't matter if he was originally white, black or any other ethnicity. Why not Reed? Has Sue even been cast yet? She could be African-American as well.
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Post by Mr. Emoticon Man, TF Fan on May 11, 2013 21:52:08 GMT -5
![](http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/proneedham/green-lantern-green-arrow2.jpg) One of the few times, imo, racism has been handled well in comics. Not saying it has much to do with the article but this was an important moment, imo. I always thought that moment was pretty stupid, personally. "What have I done for the 'black skins'? I protect the planet that they all live on. THAT is what I've done for the 'black skins'. Next question?"
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on May 11, 2013 22:29:57 GMT -5
The problem is that it didn't bring a good message- the author, in their attempt to bring it to a wide audience's attention, just didn't do it right- by including arguments that have a good reason for "why" it's a bad move [like the fact that Sue and Jonny Storm are siblings] as the same as outright racism, and doesn't even mention there being better options [if Ben Grimm was made an African-American in the new form, it would have done far better: He's not related to anyone else in the group, was on due to his skill and his being Richards's friend and partner for the work, and adding a racial change to Grimm would have been an inspired choice for his character in modern times.] I'm not sure it'd work as well with The Thing. The theme of everyone else getting these wonderful powers and him becoming different, turning into a monster that's socially shunned... When everyone getting the benefits is white, and the one who ends up facing negatives from it is the only black guy... Problematic. And he turns into a big orange rock thing, so it's not like you'd see it much anyway.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on May 11, 2013 22:34:58 GMT -5
I think the only time changing the race of a comic character should matter is if the character's race is an integral part of their character. For example, Black Panther absolutely should be a black guy only. Simon Baz, the newest Green Lantern, should always be an Arab-American(it is why he's a Green Lantern to begin with).
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2013 22:48:12 GMT -5
Was there any outrage when Bane was casted to be played by a white guy?
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on May 11, 2013 22:51:38 GMT -5
The problem is that it didn't bring a good message- the author, in their attempt to bring it to a wide audience's attention, just didn't do it right- by including arguments that have a good reason for "why" it's a bad move [like the fact that Sue and Jonny Storm are siblings] as the same as outright racism, and doesn't even mention there being better options [if Ben Grimm was made an African-American in the new form, it would have done far better: He's not related to anyone else in the group, was on due to his skill and his being Richards's friend and partner for the work, and adding a racial change to Grimm would have been an inspired choice for his character in modern times.] Okay, but see, even then, you're playing into his argument. Why pick the one character who's race isn't discernable as a superhero? Once he becomes the thing, it wouldn't matter if he was originally white, black or any other ethnicity. Why not Reed? Has Sue even been cast yet? She could be African-American as well. I heard rumors of Alison Williams... Which means their mom has some explaining to do. I don't have a problem with it if it's explain in the context of the story. Like Idris Elba as Heimdall in Thor, I don't read the comics to the extent where a black God seemed out of place or that big a factor to break the believability of the story. A black James Bond wouldn't be out of place if it's understood the popular theory now that "James Bond" is a code name. But if I see something like a white Sue Storm and a black Johnny Storm and their siblings with no explanation I'm going to wonder if their mom got some freak on the side. If it really pisses you off as something lore breaking then the answer is simple... don't go watch the film. I'm pretty sure Fox has one or two attempts left in them before they give the rights back to Marvel.
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Post by Drillbit Taylor on May 11, 2013 23:03:19 GMT -5
I say try to keep the characters no mater what race or gender the way that the creator made them. Thou Dazzler as black does fit with how she was originally going to be so there is wiggle room on cases like that or Obi Wan Kenobi was an Asian man.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2013 23:04:49 GMT -5
![](http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/proneedham/green-lantern-green-arrow2.jpg) One of the few times, imo, racism has been handled well in comics. Not saying it has much to do with the article but this was an important moment, imo. I always thought that moment was pretty stupid, personally. "What have I done for the 'black skins'? I protect the planet that they all live on. THAT is what I've done for the 'black skins'. Next question?" While I won't argue the point, since it's a bit silly to go on about it, Hal was a racist and he had to get over it. The point was that, among other things, he defended a sector of the Universe but he could've been more proactive to help life on Earth, including race issues.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on May 11, 2013 23:07:51 GMT -5
I've read way, way too many cracked.com comments--hey I was in a car accident today and can't sleep. Don't judge me! But yeah, I read way too many comments in that article and it's giving me a headache. I'd like to say that the single worst thing about this is that people are being a bit too quick to automatically demonize people who disagree with them. Jesus. Glad things are civil here.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on May 11, 2013 23:13:41 GMT -5
I say try to keep the characters no mater what race or gender the way that the creator made them. Thou Dazzler as black does fit with how she was originally going to be so there is wiggle room on cases like that or Obi Wan Kenobi was an Asian man. But when 90% of comics were made in a time when representation wasn't considered important (and honestly, it still isn't to a certain degree), that means that nobody of other races/sexualities will ever get an opportunity to appear, because let's face it, we'd probably see 100 different Batman movies before DC would ever consider doing, say, a Question movie with Renee Montoya. But then, the original Question was white, so even she wouldn't appear in this scenario.
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