Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,333
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Post by Sephiroth on Aug 15, 2013 15:23:22 GMT -5
I will actually have to argue that, to some extent, there is a cultural difference between Mexico and the USA that would work against a lot of masked wrestlers here. Lucha Libre goes to the heart of Mexican culture because the masks are a reference to Mexico's ancient heritage, to the Mayans, Aztecs, and Incas. And the tradition of masked wrestlers is so deeply ingrained in Mexico that it would be hard to imagine otherwise. The lucahdores even wear their masks in public in Mexico, only taking them off in private. You don't see that kind of kayfabe in the USA these days. Its just a different mindset. Good point but in America there's a tradition called comic books. Most superheroes wear masks. Being like a live action comic book is what draws many kids to wrestling in the first place. Plus masks have been a part of American wrestling forever. At least since the Destroyer days. I wonder if Vince can't tell the difference between Spiderman and Batman. Should probably rephrase it. The cultural difference is more damaging from the point of view of wrestling promoters than it is to the audience. In the USA the mask is just a gimmick while in Mexico its a way of life. There is kind of an unspoken code about masks that US promoters have never grasped. In Mexico the mask IS the wrestler, it is a vital part of who he is. In Te USA its just a piece of ring attire that you take off after the show. I remember a story about Vince being weirded out by Ultimo Dragon showing up for their contract negotiations wearing his mask. A Mexican promoter expects that kind of thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2013 16:54:09 GMT -5
Good point but in America there's a tradition called comic books. Most superheroes wear masks. Being like a live action comic book is what draws many kids to wrestling in the first place. Plus masks have been a part of American wrestling forever. At least since the Destroyer days. I wonder if Vince can't tell the difference between Spiderman and Batman. Should probably rephrase it. The cultural difference is more damaging from the point of view of wrestling promoters than it is to the audience. In the USA the mask is just a gimmick while in Mexico its a way of life. There is kind of an unspoken code about masks that US promoters have never grasped. In Mexico the mask IS the wrestler, it is a vital part of who he is. In Te USA its just a piece of ring attire that you take off after the show. I remember a story about Vince being weirded out by Ultimo Dragon showing up for their contract negotiations wearing his mask. A Mexican promoter expects that kind of thing. I wouldn't even say it's Mexican promoters, from what I can tell I'd say it's damn near anyone who has any semblance of what goes on outside their own homogenized wrestling bubble. There no excuse as to why Vince wouldn't kinda...sorta...get a whiff of the huge cultural deal behind Lucha Libre and masked wrestlers. If he didn't, I'd think he'd have the good sense to hire underlings who did, but I'm not some crazy white dude with a company my daddy gave me so whatever. ...yeesh, that was harsher than I intended but **** Vince. I hate when I'm reminded how more culturally inclusive WWE could be but just isn't because somebody doesn't know shit about the world outside.
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Post by misconduct was wrong on Aug 15, 2013 16:55:09 GMT -5
Good point but in America there's a tradition called comic books. Most superheroes wear masks. Being like a live action comic book is what draws many kids to wrestling in the first place. Plus masks have been a part of American wrestling forever. At least since the Destroyer days. I wonder if Vince can't tell the difference between Spiderman and Batman. Should probably rephrase it. The cultural difference is more damaging from the point of view of wrestling promoters than it is to the audience. In the USA the mask is just a gimmick while in Mexico its a way of life. There is kind of an unspoken code about masks that US promoters have never grasped. In Mexico the mask IS the wrestler, it is a vital part of who he is. In Te USA its just a piece of ring attire that you take off after the show. I remember a story about Vince being weirded out by Ultimo Dragon showing up for their contract negotiations wearing his mask. A Mexican promoter expects that kind of thing. Well stated. If Vince doesn't have any respect for what the mask means, then it would just be a gimmick to him. As for building a division around Ultimo... I know he's a legend, but I don't remember him being all that good in wwf. Sin Cara just hasn't caught on like they wanted. Injuries, wellness suspension, and not adapting to the wwe style has been his main downfall, not a bias against masks.
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Post by rybackrulez on Aug 15, 2013 17:20:20 GMT -5
Hurricane was only over wearing the mask
Again people only referencing rey and not kane or hurricane
I mean hurricane was outselling the hardyz
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,333
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Post by Sephiroth on Aug 15, 2013 17:25:52 GMT -5
The multiple botches didn't help Sin Cara either.
And if you re-read the OP, Vince DOES hire people who know about wrestling worldwide. But Bince is still the boss and the final decisions rest with him. I'm not excusing WWE's lack of diversity in some areas, but I actually don't think it is a result of Vince being prejudiced; I think it is a result of him being an obsessive workaholic who lives, breaths, thinks, and dreams WWE every single second-in other words, he doesn't get out much. There are multiple examples of Vince being total clueless about some of the hottest trends in pop culture-because he doesn't get out much. But hey, with Trips and Nips taking over more day to day operations, maybe get will change.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 24,190
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 15, 2013 17:32:25 GMT -5
Now I want to hear what he has against facepaint.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2013 17:41:10 GMT -5
Can't believe WWE wanted Ultimo Dragon back unmasked. I can't believe they wanted him back. I'd always heard Vince hated his style of wrestling, because it wasn't Rey Mysterio (which is what he assumed when Rey suggested they hire Ultimo).
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Post by Super Weak Machine on Aug 15, 2013 17:43:59 GMT -5
Hell, I'd just like a regular wrestler with a mask; not a luchador or some sort of monster like Kane, but rather something like the Spoiler or Mr. Wrestling.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2013 17:49:59 GMT -5
The multiple botches didn't help Sin Cara either. And if you re-read the OP, Vince DOES hire people who know about wrestling worldwide. But Bince is still the boss and the final decisions rest with him. I'm not excusing WWE's lack of diversity in some areas, but I actually don't think it is a result of Vince being prejudiced; I think it is a result of him being an obsessive workaholic who lives, breaths, thinks, and dreams WWE every single second-in other words, he doesn't get out much. There are multiple examples of Vince being total clueless about some of the hottest trends in pop culture-because he doesn't get out much. But hey, with Trips and Nips taking over more day to day operations, maybe get will change. That would just mean Vince hires these people but they're ultimately crippled by his own ignorance of...anything that isn't directly related to WWE. I mean, it totally is because of his own prejudices. Look, I'm not saying Vince eats babies, sacrifices kittens or straps sentient robots to lightning rods during a storm. I'm saying his own prejudices cripple his company and make it so one-dimensional. Not very smart at all if you're trying to go after an audience outside of the WWE norm, but I'm not even sure they care about that enough outside of token efforts.
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tms
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,901
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Post by tms on Aug 15, 2013 21:48:33 GMT -5
Hell, I'd just like a regular wrestler with a mask; not a luchador or some sort of monster like Kane, but rather something like the Spoiler or Mr. Wrestling. I think the Patriot's the most recent example of what you're talking about, and that was back in '96-97.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 16, 2013 4:52:41 GMT -5
Hell, I'd just like a regular wrestler with a mask; not a luchador or some sort of monster like Kane, but rather something like the Spoiler or Mr. Wrestling. I think the Patriot's the most recent example of what you're talking about, and that was back in '96-97. There was Mr. America.
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Post by Starshine on Aug 16, 2013 5:16:57 GMT -5
Vince has it right, I know for a FACT that whenever I saw Mysterio and Sin Cara in the ring at the same time I became confused and scared. I totally had to stop watching for that reason alone. I mean, how can there be two guys in masks? I can't wrap my head around that.
It was the same when they had Shane McMahon and Shane Helms on the same roster. I didn't get it. How could they both have the same name? My head hurts just thinking about it.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 16, 2013 5:43:03 GMT -5
It was the same when they had Shane McMahon and Shane Helms on the same roster. I didn't get it. How could they both have the same name? My head hurts just thinking about it. I wonder how many heads exploded in 2005 when they had Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Chris Masters, Christian and Christy Hemme all on the roster at the same time.
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Post by héad.casé on Aug 16, 2013 6:00:52 GMT -5
I remember Matt Hardy saying that he was moved to SmackDown in 2002 because Vince told him having two guys with the last name Hardy on the same show would confuse the fans.
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Post by Young Game on Aug 16, 2013 6:58:13 GMT -5
Please hire Super Dragon.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 16, 2013 7:38:11 GMT -5
I actually can sort of see Vince's point here. If WWE was already swarming with masked wrestlers each with distinct personalities that'd be a different thing, but it's not - you kind of take away some of Mysterio's draw if he is one of two masked guys rather than the only one.
Also, in Mexico character is not conveyed through promos and facial expressions nearly as much and is down to ring style, etc. whereas in the US promos largely live and die on their promos and the matches are about facial expressions. That's really hard for a masked man to do.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 16, 2013 10:01:59 GMT -5
Most WWE performers have facial expressions ranging from bored to even more bored. If a masked wrestler is decent on the mic and delivers in the ring, he/she will be fine.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Aug 16, 2013 10:52:43 GMT -5
Well to Vince's point Rey Mysterio changes the colors/styles of his mask so much that it's no longer a distinguishable trademark of his. I remember that match he came out with the Batman mask on and realized Rey Mysterio's gimmick had officially jumped-the-shark, lol (the cape sealed his fate, definitely!) Putting any other lucha wrestler up against Rey Rey and his bright-ass Fruity Pebbles mask collection will confuse kids who will just think any variation is Rey in a new mask. Sin Cara only works because they have to change the dang lighting everytime he wrestles! (I know that's not the reported reason why they change lighting, but hush and let me theorycraft!) I love how "Fruity pebbles" has become internet wrestling slang for "uber-colourful".
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Post by rybackrulez on Aug 16, 2013 11:31:16 GMT -5
Now I want to hear what he has against facepaint. Usos and tons of funk wear facepaint now Mask for guys like hurricane and rey mysterio help because of their size. Mankind, Vader, Goldust, LOD.... Hurricane looked so lame in paint. The mask was so much better.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2013 12:06:02 GMT -5
I actually can sort of see Vince's point here. If WWE was already swarming with masked wrestlers each with distinct personalities that'd be a different thing, but it's not - you kind of take away some of Mysterio's draw if he is one of two masked guys rather than the only one. Also, in Mexico character is not conveyed through promos and facial expressions nearly as much and is down to ring style, etc. whereas in the US promos largely live and die on their promos and the matches are about facial expressions. That's really hard for a masked man to do. I mean, they should be about facial expressions, you'd think. But I always saw facial expressions as a part of overall body language package. Like, I take CM Punk. Guy's got great facial expressions. Though I believe if his face were completely covered, we'd still get what he's trying to convey because he doesn't just do facial expressions. Punk may not move like the most coordinated person, but he makes up for that by being the "performer." As compared to Daniel Bryan who has a technique that's so damned sharp, that's what he uses to convey a story. Both use overall body language that aligns closely to their strengths, with some room for overlap, particularly in Bryan's case. Hell, I thought that was a testament to Sin Cara's talent that he could convey so much without using any of his face, but I guess he'd be used to that. It helps to have your face visible but even in the extreme with Sin Cara's completely covered, he can convey what he needs without it. Y'all make fun of his pointing, but even with that I noticed the guy doesn't point just to do it. Like, when he did it to Hunico impersonating him? Hunico did the point, but he just pointed. Sin Cara pointed at Hunico as if his finger was loaded and he was trying to shoot him dead on the spot for impersonating him. It's like you could tell Sin Cara was giving Hunico the stank eye under that mask.
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