Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
Killing the business one post at a time
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Aug 31, 2013 0:06:24 GMT -5
I consider Raven to be one of the all-time great characters and wrestlers. Sure, he didn't wrestle a true technical style but his matches were very well planned and he knew how to time his moved perfectly to get the correct response from the crowd. I disagree that he had a "grunge" gimmick. He may have looked grunge but his character was extremely complex and to me was one of the more accessible characters in the history of wrestling. To me he can be identified with on so many levels. The manipulative person who preys on those who are vulnerable (Flock/Nest storyline), the guy mad at the world for never giving him a chance (Dreamer/Sandman storyline) and will do anything to make others feel the way he feels, not to mention his feuds with JJ, Punk and others.
His match with Jericho at Halloween Havoc was a thing of beauty as it shows how two wrestlers can capture a crowd despite both being heels and having no storyline to connect the two.
I've always felt he was one of the most underrated wrestlers of all time that never got the chance he deserved in the WWE or WCW, thank god for Paul Heyman. Hopefully he will get a chance to work behind the scenes, though I suppose his lawsuit against WWE makes that unlikely.
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Post by rybackrulez on Aug 31, 2013 20:41:11 GMT -5
Thyroid issues and drug addiction aside just how good could RAVEN have been? He is a severely intelligent guy that is actually a member of MENSA...In WCW he was ripping some of the best promos of all time...Did he hit his peak with winning the NWA title or should have he gotten more regardless of the demons that guys today still face? Tna was him at the end very eh His peak was us champ. Too bad he didn't get more in wcw
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Post by ThereIsNoAbsurdistOnlyZuul on Aug 31, 2013 22:09:09 GMT -5
Agreed. I never got the appeal of Raven. Bingo-a lot of people never got the whole . A lot of wrestling fans in particular never got that or the whole point of Raven. He obviously had some talent, but there was always a limit as to how far he could go with that gimmick Well I liked Raven, but I can see why someone wouldn't sync to the character or like him I- Whaaaaaat?I... Did... No? There was no 'Grunge thing' to the character. Apart from the song choice, perhaps, and some of his clothes, but that wasn't as essential to the character. Window dressing, sure sure. He was a manipulative type leader type, the most recent example is CM Punk in S.E.S. mode. That is a hard sell of a villain, when he isn't actively antagonizing the audience in some fashion. Raven says: You've turned your backs on them, I can help them! Punk ses: You are all weak for indulging in your vices, and I am better than you! One is far, faaaaar more able to antagonize a broader base of people. In terms of music... Grunge was a spurt in the musical landscape of rock'n'roll that was a lot more atavistic than the glossy, over produced 80's. During his stint with the flock he mostly had NO song and then later a Muzaked version of a Nirvana song... or a White Zombie song, it's been 15 years since I heard it. In ECW he had an Offspring song as his most famous song (hardly grunge). So granted, his character was not an easy one to be translated into wrestling, as most sullen and introspective characters tend to flail and fail. But he was able to really go far as little ringwork as possible, which fit the character. Though when he eventually teamed with skirted Perry Saturn later in his run he had some of his best in-ring work, even doing the Three Amigos before Eddie really popularized them. I am not disagreeing with the overall sentiment you guys are saying, mind you. I just think that to say he had a 'Grunge thing' is a misnomer. See, Shawn was rooted in hair metal, and a gimmick and song that only became more and more dated as he got older. Sure it was easily more accessible, but the moniker of HBK fit less during Degeneration X, and was used only due to associated during his return. At least Raven's gimmick of a manipulative, nihilistic villain could age alongside him.
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Post by cabbageboy on Aug 31, 2013 22:45:40 GMT -5
I think Raven's problem was that he always surrounded himself with so many lackey jobber types. The Flock was there to mostly take beatings for him, but at the end of the day he's still closely associated with guys that are jobbers. I will say Raven was always interesting to watch and I can see certain scenarios where he could have main evented in the WWF (say circa 1997-98). His timing was inevitably bad though. He went to a crowded WCW roster, then left for ECW (where he did nothing in 1999-2000, even Heyman couldn't wait until he left). By the time he went to the WWF in 2000, he was already kinda past his prime and the roster was loaded.
His 2003 era TNA work is quite good though. One of the reasons to watch those PPV broadcasts.
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Sam Punk
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Sam Punk on Sept 1, 2013 11:47:48 GMT -5
He got the most out of his ability. He'd be great to have working in creative. Everyone credits Heyman for ECW but I think Raven had a bigger hand in it's success. TNA would be smart to sign him up.
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Post by rybackrulez on Sept 1, 2013 11:52:48 GMT -5
Raven was close to having the book in 1994, but he left. He was friends with shane though. I think it was drugs that got him out of wwe.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Sept 1, 2013 12:24:14 GMT -5
Did you even watch WCW? I totally agree that WCW failed to use Raven correctly, but you're just throwing an entire company out the window unfairly. They failed to use everyone correctly except for the top guys. Not entirely true. By 1999? Yes as Bischoff was having issues with the new management, the top guys would go over the bookers (Kevin Sullivan and Terry Taylor) and a lot of the young guys didn't like Sullivan. But between 1996 and 1998 most things worked and it wasn't just the nWo. Once Raven joined they made him a fairly big deal with WCW actively courting him and him constantly tearing up their offers until they let him wrestle "Raven Rules" matches. He spent most of the time feuding with one of WCW's top faces in DDP. BUt Raven's drug issues really killed a lot of his career. Listen to any interview he'd do. He'd get ready to go to rehab, he and Sandman would get high going to rehab, and as soon as his stint was done, they'd get high again. All Raven's health issues came from his heavy drug use
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2013 13:02:16 GMT -5
Raven went about as high as he was going to go, the dark, nihilistic brooding type gimmick with rare exceptions is almost always upper midcard at best. Raven is one of my favorite characters but he wasn't ever going to be a main eventer in the big time.
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Post by Manute Bol on Sept 1, 2013 13:28:02 GMT -5
Whaaaaaat?I... Did... No? There was no 'Grunge thing' to the character. Apart from the song choice, perhaps, and some of his clothes, but that wasn't as essential to the character. Window dressing, sure sure. He was a manipulative type leader type, the most recent example is CM Punk in S.E.S. mode. That is a hard sell of a villain, when he isn't actively antagonizing the audience in some fashion. Haha I'm glad someone pointed that out. Apparently if you were wearing a flannel in the 90s you were grunge. As an aside, what does the whole Mensa thing have to do with Raven's potential? He seems to love mentioning it in interviews, which I find really annoying. Why would his Mensa membership translate into being a capable wrestler?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2013 14:13:09 GMT -5
I consider Raven to be one of the all-time great characters and wrestlers. Sure, he didn't wrestle a true technical style but his matches were very well planned and he knew how to time his moved perfectly to get the correct response from the crowd. I disagree that he had a "grunge" gimmick. He may have looked grunge but his character was extremely complex and to me was one of the more accessible characters in the history of wrestling. To me he can be identified with on so many levels. The manipulative person who preys on those who are vulnerable (Flock/Nest storyline), the guy mad at the world for never giving him a chance (Dreamer/Sandman storyline) and will do anything to make others feel the way he feels, not to mention his feuds with JJ, Punk and others. His match with Jericho at Halloween Havoc was a thing of beauty as it shows how two wrestlers can capture a crowd despite both being heels and having no storyline to connect the two. I've always felt he was one of the most underrated wrestlers of all time that never got the chance he deserved in the WWE or WCW, thank god for Paul Heyman. Hopefully he will get a chance to work behind the scenes, though I suppose his lawsuit against WWE makes that unlikely. I think you did a fantastic job of summarizing Raven in this post. What's really awesome is how parts that would make entirely separate characters for some people (Manipulative leader and Guy wronged by the world are entire gimmicks for some people) managed to feed into each other so organically.
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Sept 1, 2013 17:18:41 GMT -5
If he would have stayed as Johnny Polo he would have HHH's spot.
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Post by An Old Villain on Sept 1, 2013 22:43:48 GMT -5
If he would have stayed CLEAN as Johnny PoloAND MARRIED STEPHANIE he would have HHH's spot, MAYBE .
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Mac
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Post by Mac on Sept 1, 2013 23:07:30 GMT -5
I think in the grand sceme of things he did pretty well for himself. He was the champion of ECW when it was at its hottest. People will probably forever look back fondly with ECW especially with the more years that pass with a "safer" look to whats demeed professional wrestling. He had a decenbt midcard stint in WCW, a short but OK one in WWF and a good run in TNA. The guy had a solid 12+ years in the industry despite being a mediocre to OK wrestler. He struck it good at the right time and had a really good run IMO
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Post by eDemento2099 on Sept 2, 2013 22:41:45 GMT -5
I think Raven reached his peak when he returned to ECW from having wrestled in WCW. Sure, he only got to wear Tag Team gold after returning (He had been ECW world champion prior to leaving ECW for WCW), but his promos were incredible, as were his matches in the ring. This was Raven at his charismatic peak. He was no longer paired up with a buffoonish Stevie Richards, but rather, his long-time arch enemy Tommy Dreamer, for whom he still bore resentment.
I LOVED watching Raven in WCW, but the fact of the matter is that as good as he was, the people in charge kept Raven relegated to upper mid-card status and refused to let him develop a long-running feud with upper-card guys like Goldberg (DDP and Raven took Goldberg matches to a whole new level, giving him the best matches of his career).
The only thing I saw Raven do after leaving ECW for the second time that was anywhere close to being as good as his WCW and ECW stuff was his hardcore match against Rhino (Rhyno) at the WWF's Backlash 2001 PPV.
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