Just how good could RAVEN have been?

[Deleted]

Thyroid issues and drug addiction aside just how good could RAVEN have been? He is a severely intelligent guy that is actually a member of MENSA...In WCW he was ripping some of the best promos of all time...Did he hit his peak with winning the NWA title or should have he gotten more regardless of the demons that guys today still face?

[Andrew is Good]

One of Raven's problems in WCW was drugs, but also WCW itself. People say, oh, WWE shouldn't bury WCW, oh look, here's another article of WWE bashing WCW. To those people I say, did you even watch WCW? My favourite Review a Wai podcast shows are on WCW shows, because of how bad they are. And it's like, every WCW show or pay per view is a disaster. The only good WCW show they reviewed was the night Goldberg won the WCW Title in the Georgia Dome. They had one intriguing storyline, and that was it.

Basically, Raven wasn't going anywhere in WCW, because he couldn't. Same with Jericho, Konnan or any midcard act that started getting over. Bobby Hennan was asked one time how WCW could have been fixed, and he responded take everyone in management, put them into a room, throw in a grenade and close the door.

Raven winning the NWA Title, him crying finding out he was going to win it, and everything was the pinnacle of Raven's career, and after that, he started having health issues, he was gaining weight, and he kinda went down hill after that, despite him being a strong TNA talent in the early years. I've always considered that the end of his prime and after that, to now, is basically the twilight of his career where he can have legend status and just work little shows here and there.

[Deleted]

....he cried?

[thegame415]

I think Raven's flock feuding with Sting could've been an awesome feud if booked right in 1998. Think about the top feuds as this (in no order):

-NWO Hollywood vs Wolpack (with a FINAL battle, ending one side)
- Raven's Flock vs Sting
- Goldberg's Streak
- Hart Foundation (Bret, Neidhart and Davey Boy) vs Four Horsemen (Flair, Benoit, Malenko and McMichael)

[TGM]

He had the misfortune to win the U.S. title the night before they decided to plant it on Goldberg, who didn't really need it anyway.

After that, it was downhill for Raven in WCW, from what I recall.

[EyeofTyr]

By the time he was Raven, he was pretty much squandered by any promotion not named ECW.

I agree with the sentiments about WCW. Guy was over and he was skilled, both in the ring and on the mic. The crowd was very clearly ready for him to be a main eventer numerous times. And, WCW to some extent seemed aware of it, with how much he was featured in promotions and advertizement and video games, and so on. But they never pulled the trigger.

WWE...well, everybody knows how it went for him there. I think the worst thing for him was the fact that he got into the WWE during their transition years. When they started shifting from their old ways of doing stuff in the back, ways somebody like Raven was more used to to the more scripted and highly controlled manner in which stuff is done today. Had he been a few years earlier in getting there, I think he could've maybe had a better chance at it.

TNA wasted him. They fed him to Jarrett to try to make the latter seem like a bigger deal than he was. By the time they actually rewarded him for his efforts, as somebody else said, he unfortunately was nearing the end of his prime. Health issues being what really killed him.

Had he stayed clean, or cleaner, and had he not had health issues, I think Raven would've had an even stronger career. As is, him not meeting his potential is a combination of various managements' boneheadedness and his own demons.

[Reflecto]

Honestly, I think Raven kind of overachieved rather than underachieved. He was a poor fit for WCW at the time (and did as well as he could), and in WWF, but he was never as good a fit as he was in ECW- and in WWF there were people who were better at the things he was best at than he was. Him winning the NWA title was a great moment, and the only real way he could have gotten better was if they struck when the iron was hot in 2003.

[Deleted]

He had a successful career. At a very young age he got the job in WCW, and then WWF as Johnny Polo, where he also had an office job as a television producer in addition to being a manager. Creatively as a wrestler, he had ECW. He then made good money in WCW and WWE for a bit. He really should be either an agent in WWE now or be on their writing team, as his career as an active wrestler is nearing the end, but he has a good mind. Or be a commentator.

[chazraps]

Do you think Raven could have thrived had he gone back to WCW in 2000 as opposed to WWF?

[bootytea]

Honestly, if Raven was that special, he would be bigger than what he is today.

Vince Mcmahon let Shawn Michaels get away with all kinds of travesties because he knew that Shawn was filled with limitless potential.

Raven came at a time where people were listening to grungy bands such as Nirvana so it made sense that his gimmick made a connection, but after that, there is not much I can see Raven doing.

People think just because he is said to have a high intelligence quotient that he should be in a better position than he is, well I say, he should have used that education to make a difference in society instead of participating in an exploitative industry that is actually a detriment to the social fabric of society.

Don't get me wrong, I love me some wrassling though, but you would be a bit silly to see it as some form of entertainment that encourages mental stimulation.

[The Possum]

I'm a huge Raven mark, and I would have loved to see him be in the spotlight a lot more, but I feel like he got a fitting run in TNA while his prime was ending, as many have put it. Honestly, I think what he brings most to the table is not his ability to make his own success, but his mind for the business, specifically in promos and psychology of a storyline. If it weren't for his own personal problems, I really think he'd be the perfect person to fill one of the roles occupied by William Regal, Billy Gunn, or Paul Heyman in today's WWE.

And say what you want about him, but in my book, Raven is one of the most compelling stars in the history of professional wrestling. Anything he did made me pay attention.

[BrodietheSlayer]

I think out of all the federations he worked for as Raven, WWE was the one that probably made him the most money, but used him the worst. He was fantastic in ECW, and that was probably where he was at his best. TNA would probably be next, as they actually gave him the NWA belt, although, far too late. He was majorly over in TNA in its first few years, and it was probably good he ended his major career there.

Like in TNA, Raven was always second to the "main guys" in WCW, but did get decently over with the whole Flock idea for awhile, until the wheels came off mid 1998, when they decided to kill it completely. After that, he just floated around until he left for ECW again in mid 1999, and had one of the best returns ever.


As for WWE, they let him come in as Raven, but then seemed bound and determined to change and alter the character from what it was. I think Scott/Raven kind of fought that, and that's why he was pretty much jobbed into oblivion until he was released. The TNA jump kind of reignited his career at that point from the damage WWE caused it.

[nickcave]

Raven was one of the people that WCW actually used much better than WWE, I mean he was one of the four people featured on the cover of WCW/nWo Revenge if that says anything. That being said, if he were to have debuted in the WWF around 97/98 he probably would have been one of their top stars but he came in when the roster was heavily bloated with talented people so there wasn't much room for him to do anything. He did get a Wrestlemania match out of it though, at the best Wrestlemania of all time no less.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Aug 29, 2013 18:30:29 GMT -5 Andrew is Good said:

One of Raven's problems in WCW was drugs, but also WCW itself. People say, oh, WWE shouldn't bury WCW, oh look, here's another article of WWE bashing WCW. To those people I say, did you even watch WCW? My favourite Review a Wai podcast shows are on WCW shows, because of how bad they are. And it's like, every WCW show or pay per view is a disaster. The only good WCW show they reviewed was the night Goldberg won the WCW Title in the Georgia Dome. They had one intriguing storyline, and that was it.

Did you even watch WCW? I totally agree that WCW failed to use Raven correctly, but you're just throwing an entire company out the window unfairly.

[Andrew is Good]

Aug 30, 2013 8:43:54 GMT -5 "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay said:

Aug 29, 2013 18:30:29 GMT -5 Andrew is Good said:

One of Raven's problems in WCW was drugs, but also WCW itself. People say, oh, WWE shouldn't bury WCW, oh look, here's another article of WWE bashing WCW. To those people I say, did you even watch WCW? My favourite Review a Wai podcast shows are on WCW shows, because of how bad they are. And it's like, every WCW show or pay per view is a disaster. The only good WCW show they reviewed was the night Goldberg won the WCW Title in the Georgia Dome. They had one intriguing storyline, and that was it.

Did you even watch WCW? I totally agree that WCW failed to use Raven correctly, but you're just throwing an entire company out the window unfairly.

They failed to use everyone correctly except for the top guys.

[Lardlad]

I still wish they had done more with him on Heat.

He pitched a seven deadly sins storyline involving him, Matt Hardy and Lita that sounded like it could have got him somewhere.

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2013 13:49:40 GMT -5 Lardlad said:

I still wish they had done more with him on Heat.

He pitched a seven deadly sins storyline involving him, Matt Hardy and Lita that sounded like it could have got him somewhere.

Hmm...I've never heard about that. What was it going to be?

[Lardlad]

Aug 30, 2013 14:13:26 GMT -5 @ambrosefan said:

Aug 30, 2013 13:49:40 GMT -5 Lardlad said:

I still wish they had done more with him on Heat.

He pitched a seven deadly sins storyline involving him, Matt Hardy and Lita that sounded like it could have got him somewhere.

Hmm...I've never heard about that. What was it going to be?

There was a thread about it a while back here: officialfan.proboards.com/thread/339967

[Deleted]

He overachieved if anything. The dude worked everywhere with a memorable character and made enough money to get reliable indy dates despite being kind of a pain in the ass. He did this despite never being that great in the ring and having a character that was honestly kind of inaccessible to a lot of people.

[NOwave]

Honestly, if Raven was that special, he would be bigger than what he is today.

Vince Mcmahon let Shawn Michaels get away with all kinds of travesties because he knew that Shawn was filled with limitless potential.

Raven came at a time where people were listening to grungy bands such as Nirvana so it made sense that his gimmick made a connection, but after that, there is not much I can see Raven doing.

People think just because he is said to have a high intelligence quotient that he should be in a better position than he is, well I say, he should have used that education to make a difference in society instead of participating in an exploitative industry that is actually a detriment to the social fabric of society.

Don't get me wrong, I love me some wrassling though, but you would be a bit silly to see it as some form of entertainment that encourages mental stimulation.

Agreed. I never got the appeal of Raven.

He overachieved if anything. The dude worked everywhere with a memorable character and made enough money to get reliable indy dates despite being kind of a pain in the ass. He did this despite never being that great in the ring and having a character that was honestly kind of inaccessible to a lot of people.

Bingo-a lot of people never got the whole Grunge thing. A lot of wrestling fans in particular never got that or the whole point of Raven. He obviously had some talent, but there was always a limit as to how far he could go with that gimmick