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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2013 16:37:03 GMT -5
I'd say he's up there, I think his ability to be an excellent heel or face is what always impressed me.
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Post by cabbageboy on Sept 3, 2013 17:44:35 GMT -5
The only real knocks on Savage are perhaps an over-reliance on Elizabeth to generate heat and not necessarily having an ultra long run.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2013 18:17:32 GMT -5
To me, he's the GOAT. If I'm being fair and objective about it, I'd put him only behind Hogan, Austin and The Rock in terms of biggest stars of the modern era.
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Blindkarevik
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Post by Blindkarevik on Sept 3, 2013 18:33:56 GMT -5
I would say he's easily one of the best non-verbal workers ever.
The exchange with Elizabeth after his match at WM7 had no words, just actions... you could see him being shocked at her being there, not sure what to make of it, Elizabeth... not sure what to make of it either, not aware of what compelled her to come to his defense from Sherri, Savage realizing what happened, contemplating the ramifications, then they embrace.
There ware tears in the crowd and it's tough not to get at least a little choked up, and it was all the non-verbal cues that made it. If it was just, "Hey, Sherri's not here.. Elizabeth is... let's hug!" It would've gotten a pop, but not been anywhere near as emotional.
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Post by Kash Flagg on Sept 3, 2013 18:36:01 GMT -5
I think he belongs in that special group of legends like Flair, Hogan, Andre, Piper, Austin. Guys like HBK and Sting are just a half step under them.
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Post by Glitch on Sept 3, 2013 18:37:04 GMT -5
You left out that was also a dope ass MC.
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Post by tekkenguy on Sept 3, 2013 18:39:33 GMT -5
I'd put Bret at the top, but I do think he is one of them.
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tms
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Post by tms on Sept 3, 2013 18:54:23 GMT -5
He has my vote. At his peak he was as talented an athlete as I've seen in THIS BUSINESS. He was quicker and more fluid than any wrestler I've ever seen, rivaled only by, ironically, Ricky Steamboat.
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Post by The OP on Sept 3, 2013 19:46:23 GMT -5
His only major flaw would be that he could be inflexible. He preferred to have matches planned virtually step by step, rather than calling it in the ring, and that made him difficult to work with compared to many, but you can't really argue with the results. I happen to agree that Savage is all things considered the greatest of all time. The only person I've ever heard criticize Savage for planning his matches is Ric Flair. He put words in the mouths of Ricky Steamboat and Curt Hennig and claimed they felt the same way, though to my knowledge that claim has never been backed up by anyone. I don't really consider that a knock against him anyway, and I certainly wouldn't call it a "major flaw". That might be a matter of opinion for the wrestlers who worked with him, but if we're having a discussion as fans about who was the all around greatest to watch, transcended the sport, etc. I don't see how it's a relevant point at all.
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 3, 2013 19:49:26 GMT -5
His only major flaw would be that he could be inflexible. He preferred to have matches planned virtually step by step, rather than calling it in the ring, and that made him difficult to work with compared to many, but you can't really argue with the results. I happen to agree that Savage is all things considered the greatest of all time. The only person I've ever heard criticize Savage for planning his matches is Ric Flair. He put words in the mouths of Ricky Steamboat and Curt Hennig and claimed they felt the same way, though to my knowledge that claim has never been backed up by anyone. I don't really consider that a knock against him anyway, and I certainly wouldn't call it a "major flaw". That might be a matter of opinion for the wrestlers who worked with him, but if we're having a discussion as fans about who was the all around greatest to watch, transcended the sport, etc. I don't see how it's a relevant point at all. I'm sorry you feel that way, but if we're talking about best wrestlers ever, and a very big part of wrestling is rolling with the punches if things don't go the way they are planned, then I am not sure why it wouldn't be relevant.
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Sept 3, 2013 19:55:36 GMT -5
I happen to agree that Savage is all things considered the greatest of all time. The only person I've ever heard criticize Savage for planning his matches is Ric Flair. He put words in the mouths of Ricky Steamboat and Curt Hennig and claimed they felt the same way, though to my knowledge that claim has never been backed up by anyone. I don't really consider that a knock against him anyway, and I certainly wouldn't call it a "major flaw". That might be a matter of opinion for the wrestlers who worked with him, but if we're having a discussion as fans about who was the all around greatest to watch, transcended the sport, etc. I don't see how it's a relevant point at all. I'm sorry you feel that way, but if we're talking about best wrestlers ever, and a very big part of wrestling is rolling with the punches if things don't go the way they are planned, then I am not sure why it wouldn't be relevant. Just like why I don't care if an actor is classically trained or a method actor, the end performance is what matters. Liking to plan your matches in advance doesn't mean you can't call an audible on the fly if needed.
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 3, 2013 19:58:43 GMT -5
I'm sorry you feel that way, but if we're talking about best wrestlers ever, and a very big part of wrestling is rolling with the punches if things don't go the way they are planned, then I am not sure why it wouldn't be relevant. Just like why I don't care if an actor is classically trained or a method actor, the end performance is what matters. Liking to plan your matches in advance doesn't mean you can't call an audible on the fly if needed. Fair enough. At any rate, the rest of my original post makes it pretty clear I still consider him one of the greatest of all time, and just thought it was only fair to bring up my only real gripe with the guy's work, so it's a mostly moot point anyway, in so far as how I would rate him. Randy Savage was the tower of power, too sweet to be sour, space is the place, funky like a monkey, and all that. Oooooh Yeah!
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Doctor Of Style
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Sept 3, 2013 20:02:16 GMT -5
Just like why I don't care if an actor is classically trained or a method actor, the end performance is what matters. Liking to plan your matches in advance doesn't mean you can't call an audible on the fly if needed. Fair enough. At any rate, the rest of my original post makes it pretty clear I still consider him one of the greatest of all time, and just thought it was only fair to bring up my only real gripe with the guy's work, so it's a mostly moot point anyway, in so far as how I would rate him. Randy Savage was the tower of power, too sweet to be sour, space is the place, funky like a monkey, and all that. Oooooh Yeah! Snap into a Slim Jim...Dig it!
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 3, 2013 20:12:30 GMT -5
Fair enough. At any rate, the rest of my original post makes it pretty clear I still consider him one of the greatest of all time, and just thought it was only fair to bring up my only real gripe with the guy's work, so it's a mostly moot point anyway, in so far as how I would rate him. Randy Savage was the tower of power, too sweet to be sour, space is the place, funky like a monkey, and all that. Oooooh Yeah! Snap into a Slim Jim...Dig it!
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Doctor Of Style
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Post by Doctor Of Style on Sept 3, 2013 20:29:29 GMT -5
Snap into a Slim Jim...Dig it! I think it says something for him that he managed to stay hugely over while dressed like that. Sadly "Be A Man!" lacked such great production values as that Youtube video.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Sept 4, 2013 8:52:56 GMT -5
I would say he's easily one of the best non-verbal workers ever. The exchange with Elizabeth after his match at WM7 had no words, just actions... you could see him being shocked at her being there, not sure what to make of it, Elizabeth... not sure what to make of it either, not aware of what compelled her to come to his defense from Sherri, Savage realizing what happened, contemplating the ramifications, then they embrace. There ware tears in the crowd and it's tough not to get at least a little choked up, and it was all the non-verbal cues that made it. If it was just, "Hey, Sherri's not here.. Elizabeth is... let's hug!" It would've gotten a pop, but not been anywhere near as emotional. That will always be my favorite Randy and Liz moment and its bitter sweetness (their characters would "marry" at the next PPV while their real-life marriage was unravelling) never fails to move me.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 4, 2013 9:23:49 GMT -5
While there's an argument to be made that his lack of desire to improvise and pull things out on the fly could be held against him, I still find him the only one I could give a perfect mark on Bret Hart's 30 point scale.
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Post by chronocross on Sept 4, 2013 9:29:31 GMT -5
I'd put him behind Hulk Hogan. He could play a face or heel and could move around that ring with the best of them.
The thing about him planning his matches doesn't matter much to me, I didn't even know about it until I heard a shoot with Steamboat mentioning it.
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Post by adam3s on Sept 4, 2013 9:34:26 GMT -5
Steve Austin.
Savage would be a good claim for second. Austin has to be first, it's hard to argue against wrestling biggest draw, who also has some 5 star matches under his belt.
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Post by oniloco on Sept 4, 2013 10:02:32 GMT -5
Based on the discussed criteria- and I think you have to add 'be great as both a babyface and heel' to be the GOAT- I'd actually suggest Kurt Angle could be it.
Not that I disagree ith the other names, but to be the absolute best I'd personally say you need - Strong Mic Work - To draw money and/or sell Merch - Good matches of a normal type - Good at gimick matches - To be convincigly serious and comedic - to have a high level of charisma - To bring the best out of your opponents - Not to hurt any opponents
I'd argue that Kurt had all these traits.
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