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Post by oniloco on Sept 4, 2013 10:04:35 GMT -5
(And the weird thing is I don;t even consider myself much of an Angle fan! he just popped up in my mind as being the best all rounder at pretty much everything)
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Sept 4, 2013 11:26:27 GMT -5
Steve Austin. Savage would be a good claim for second. Austin has to be first, it's hard to argue against wrestling biggest draw, who also has some 5 star matches under his belt. I'd certainly agree for the most part. However, due to that unfortunate neck injury, his in-ring work suffered as a result. It's hard to really classify that since he didn't have much of a choice, but since it was at the absolute peak of his success, I have to slide him down the list a bit. I'd still rank him in the top 5 overall though. Based on the discussed criteria- and I think you have to add 'be great as both a babyface and heel' to be the GOAT- I'd actually suggest Kurt Angle could be it. Not that I disagree ith the other names, but to be the absolute best I'd personally say you need - Strong Mic Work - To draw money and/or sell Merch - Good matches of a normal type - Good at gimick matches - To be convincigly serious and comedic - to have a high level of charisma - To bring the best out of your opponents - Not to hurt any opponents I'd argue that Kurt had all these traits. He certainly could. Angle is the only guy I know that could give Savage a run for his money. Both guys could do absolutely limitless in terms of any kind of skill. |
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Sept 4, 2013 12:28:41 GMT -5
Greatest of all time?
These discussions always seem to start with the eighties. Gorgeous George has quite a freaking resume many people would die for today. Muhammed Ali, considered one of the greatest boxers ever, credits George with inspiring him to play to the crowd and become a character and it made him huge. George and Uncle Milty are the reason why people bought televisions, today people have a hard time selling a PPV on a name. Even today while he is little more than a footnote to most fans his influence is still visible.
Savage definitely had all the tools it's just that in any particular category he was never number one in that category. When an opponent outshone him in one category he outshone him in two others, so there is that, but as much as I love the guy and as few as his faults were between the ropes or with the mic in his hand I just don't see him as a GOAT. Definitely a template for what makes a goat but he had the unfortunate luck to shine when there were a lot of other stars shining too.
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Post by RareTradU on Sept 4, 2013 14:28:47 GMT -5
Those who are saying Randy wasn't that great because he didn't like to call his matches in the ring should realize that no one in WWE has been calling matches themselves for the past ten years or more. Every match is completely scripted by the producers and wrestlers, the same way Randy would do it. Obviously you can't script 100% of everything in a 40 minute match like his match with Steamboat at WM3 so he had to of called a good bit of the match in the ring. Using that logic in the future we could say; Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, and Ziggler weren't great because Dean Malenko and Arn Anderson scripted all their matches for them. Doesn't matter how they call it or book the match what matters is how the match turns out and he had tons of great matches.
Randy had it all. The voice, the presence, the attitude, and ability to be larger than life. And he was. A greatest of all time argument is tough because there were so many great wrestlers. Definitely in the top 10 of all time and a shame he isn't in the Hall of Fame.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
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Post by The OP on Sept 5, 2013 2:42:18 GMT -5
I happen to agree that Savage is all things considered the greatest of all time. The only person I've ever heard criticize Savage for planning his matches is Ric Flair. He put words in the mouths of Ricky Steamboat and Curt Hennig and claimed they felt the same way, though to my knowledge that claim has never been backed up by anyone. I don't really consider that a knock against him anyway, and I certainly wouldn't call it a "major flaw". That might be a matter of opinion for the wrestlers who worked with him, but if we're having a discussion as fans about who was the all around greatest to watch, transcended the sport, etc. I don't see how it's a relevant point at all. I'm sorry you feel that way, but if we're talking about best wrestlers ever, and a very big part of wrestling is rolling with the punches if things don't go the way they are planned, then I am not sure why it wouldn't be relevant. It's irrelevant because it makes no difference to the spectator. Unless you're the wrestler working with him in the ring and you prefer to call the match on the fly it's not something you would even know about and there's no reason it should bother you. The only reason you even know about it is because it was in Ric Flair's book. Why would you personally have a "gripe" with his work based on that? To me it doesn't make sense. |
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 5, 2013 3:20:35 GMT -5
I'm sorry you feel that way, but if we're talking about best wrestlers ever, and a very big part of wrestling is rolling with the punches if things don't go the way they are planned, then I am not sure why it wouldn't be relevant. It's irrelevant because it makes no difference to the spectator. Unless you're the wrestler working with him in the ring and you prefer to call the match on the fly it's not something you would even know about and there's no reason it should bother you. The only reason you even know about it is because it was in Ric Flair's book. Why would you personally have a "gripe" with his work based on that? To me it doesn't make sense. When you quoted that, you took a part of my post, not all of it. The context made it clear that I was reaching for a criticism of a very good worker to make it fair. You're right, I would not see it, and I said he was one of the best ever. I was just using it as an example of why he would potentially not be THE best. It was a reach. |
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
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Post by The OP on Sept 5, 2013 13:43:25 GMT -5
Gotcha. If it seems strangely convenient that I had all my reasonings ready to go, it's because I've had this same debate with a local wrestler I know. I saw a show that he worked where there were two young guys (first year rookies I believe) who had a match the crowd loved and really ate up, and arguably stole the show. My friend was like "Well, you know why their match was good right? It's because they sat there for like an hour in the locker room and went over every part of it beforehand." And I was like "...so? Doesn't that just show dedication to their craft? They wanted to make sure they had a good match. Why is that bad?" He couldn't really answer me, and it just came off like sour grapes in my opinion, and speaking of sour grapes, Ric Flair's book was chocked full of them! Flair did a lot of really great work that I love to watch and even holds up years later, but I couldn't believe how many potshots he took at guys like Savage, Mick Foley, etc. and how much he sucked up to Triple H and Vince McMahon. When Flair said that about Savage, and felt the need to include unsubstantiated claims that other famous wrestlers agreed with him, it came off to me like he was just jealous that so many people consider Steamboat/Savage from Wrestlemania III to be Steamboat's greatest match, while Flair would probably tell you to take your pick of any Steamboat/Flair match. I don't hold it personally against Flair though, because I think he's just arrogant, eccentric, and in love with his own work like 99% of wrestlers, musicians, actors, and anybody else with an artistic personality. Ironically, I think he has a lot in common with Bret Hart in that regard.
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Johnny
Don Corleone
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Post by Johnny on Sept 6, 2013 9:54:44 GMT -5
It seems that the general consensus falls upon traits such as drawing power, workrate, appearance, mic work, and their ability to transcend wrestling. I hate to be that guy, but John Cena does pretty well according to the criteria. My point is there needs to be a certain amount of IT factor as well in the criteria. Cena is great and all, but i doubt he'll make my top 10 when he hangs up his boots. On topic, Savage is in my top 2. He is helped by the fact his run with WWF has great continuity throughout, with a clear beginning, middle and end. |
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