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Post by Dave the Dave on Nov 15, 2013 15:55:31 GMT -5
I know it's something that happens all the time, but it always seems weird to me.
The biggest example I can think of is Immortal Hulk Hogan becomg Hollywood Hogan and being scared of guys like Savage and Piper and Warrior that he'd squared off with before. Warrior makes sense a little because he lost, but it's still odd.
Granted Hogan did an amazing job with it, but why would someone as dominant as Hogan shift gears? Does having a newly inflated ego makee him more concious of his win/loss record or is he acting this way because he knows he's entering the twilight of his career?
I'm talking kayfabe of course. In a case like Ryback who was fighting 12 guys at a time and he then quits from Miz kicking his leg? It seems like an odd shift, and in Ryback's case it doesn't make much sense?
Thoughts?
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SOR
Unicron
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Post by SOR on Nov 15, 2013 16:03:24 GMT -5
With Hogan I guess kayfabe wise it could be because when he begs off he could get one over on the baby faces who give him an opportunity to recover.
For example, Hogan begs off on Savage. Savage turns around looking to the crowd asking what he should do and BAM low blow from Hulk who now can dominate the rest of the match.
I would like to see a dominant baby face just turn into a dominant heel though. If Cena ever turned heel he could be a dominant heel but he'd still wrestle like a face. He's good enough to get heat for all of his old baby face moves.
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Post by The Last Hero on Nov 15, 2013 16:17:22 GMT -5
Perfect example is Ryback and CM Punk. Two Hell in a Cell matches in a year…one match CM Punk gets beaten pretty badly by Ryback and has to cheat to win. The next year he beats Ryback like nothing. It's does absolutely nothing for me. I'm already suspending enough disbelief as it is.
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jagilki
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by jagilki on Nov 15, 2013 18:19:51 GMT -5
..... thought this said unstoppable feces.
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Post by JTG Fan on Nov 15, 2013 18:22:47 GMT -5
Yeah in kayfabe it really makes no sense. In theory, the best way to do it is to have the babyface finally show some weakness and lose some matches before his turn, which tells the story that he was worried he was 'losing it' so he became desperate. They kind of did this with Austin (I love the line about "I have to beat you Rock, more than you'll ever know"), but it was a bit too subtle for most fans.
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Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Professor Chaos on Nov 15, 2013 19:19:24 GMT -5
This is my biggest pet peeve about wrestling. Absolutely hate it
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Nov 15, 2013 20:09:16 GMT -5
a dominant face has little reason to become a dominant heel. The crowd would have to turn on them and they in turn turn on the crowd. Generally when a dominant guy turns heel in storyline he's in a situation where what previously had worked for him suddenly doesn;t. Everyone kicking out of his finisher on the first shot for example. So he's unsure of himself
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Post by Larryhausen on Nov 15, 2013 23:11:39 GMT -5
The way I always look at it is this:
Dominant Face: constantly pushing themselves in the ring, in the gym, studying opponents matches, and, most importantly, feeding off the crowd's energy to give them an adrenaline boost.
Chickenshit Heel: for whatever reason, they realize that doing all that work wasn't doing jack shit for them, so they start taking shortcuts. This new attitude leads them to slack off on working out, training, and studying their opponent. Thought process being "Meh, whatever. I'll just low blow him if it gets too hard." Success leads to complacency, basically. So when the face finally goes on the comeback, the heel is thinking, "F***, I'm so not prepared for this."
Still takes a little suspension of disbelief, but no more then believing an Irish Whip, IMO.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 15, 2013 23:18:32 GMT -5
The way I always look at it is this: Dominant Face: constantly pushing themselves in the ring, in the gym, studying opponents matches, and, most importantly, feeding off the crowd's energy to give them an adrenaline boost. Chickenshit Heel: for whatever reason, they realize that doing all that work wasn't doing jack shit for them, so they start taking shortcuts. This new attitude leads them to slack off on working out, training, and studying their opponent. Thought process being "Meh, whatever. I'll just low blow him if it gets too hard." Success leads to complacency, basically. So when the face finally goes on the comeback, the heel is thinking, "F***, I'm so not prepared for this." Still takes a little suspension of disbelief, but no more then believing an Irish Whip, IMO. Huh, that's actually a cool way to think about it. Thanks!
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ICBM
King Koopa
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Post by ICBM on Nov 17, 2013 14:48:09 GMT -5
BTW, Irish whip is a derogatory shot taken at the Irish for being slow witted. As in the fighter gets so wrapped up in getting back to fighting his opponent, he is duped mid ring and goes along with it. Long long ago it was used that way, but over time it just got adapted.
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Professor Chaos
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Professor Chaos on Nov 17, 2013 17:02:02 GMT -5
I don't see what's so absurd about an irish whip. I could do it to people smaller than me. You swing them and they can't stop their momentum. I'm talking into the corner mind you. I wouldn't expect them to bounce off the ropes but that isn't too far fetched eithet.
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Post by turkeysandwich on Nov 17, 2013 17:17:25 GMT -5
I always thought with Hogan it was that no longer had the "Power of Hulkamania" behind him. That was always the idea that the Hulkamaniacs gave him superpowers that allowed him to Hulk-up and overcome what the opponent dishes out. When he turned his back on the Hulkamaniacs, he no longer had that power.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Nov 17, 2013 17:18:28 GMT -5
Hogan no longer had the power of his Hulkamaniacs supporting him giving him strength.
But that's what a heel is supposed to do. Be cowardly and cheat. The worst heels are those that thing "Sod it, I'm still going to look amazing"
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Nov 17, 2013 17:20:20 GMT -5
Yeah in kayfabe it really makes no sense. In theory, the best way to do it is to have the babyface finally show some weakness and lose some matches before his turn, which tells the story that he was worried he was 'losing it' so he became desperate. They kind of did this with Austin (I love the line about "I have to beat you Rock, more than you'll ever know"), but it was a bit too subtle for most fans. To add, Austin was still relatively fresh off a year-long absence due to a very public injury, kayfabed as the hit-and-run from Survivor Series 1999. And then he comes back, wins the Royal Rumble, but LOSES the blow-off match against Triple H, the mastermind who orchestrated the attack on Austin. And Triple H was already 'the Game' at that point, so if Austin couldn't cut it against him, maybe he couldn't cut it at all. It adds to the layers of subtlety when setting up Austin's turn.
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Post by Cela on Nov 17, 2013 19:28:43 GMT -5
It's dumb. It worked on the carnival circuit, but there is no reason it should exist in nationally broadcast weekly programming.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Nov 17, 2013 21:10:45 GMT -5
It worked for Hogan because he was older and less headstrong, and didn't have the fans to feed off of, the Hulkamaniacs had forsaken him.
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Post by thegame415 on Nov 17, 2013 21:34:27 GMT -5
..... thought this said unstoppable feces.
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Post by RedSmile on Nov 17, 2013 22:50:57 GMT -5
..... thought this said unstoppable feces. Your avatar looks awfully hopeful..
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Nov 17, 2013 22:59:43 GMT -5
I really think it depends on who is trying to pull it off.
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4real
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Post by 4real on Nov 18, 2013 6:33:32 GMT -5
As much as I love Kurt Angle both Austin & Lesnar's heel turns on him and then acting like they couldn't beat him and were scared of him just didn't seem right at all to me.
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