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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Nov 20, 2013 14:44:04 GMT -5
So I'm reading Bret Hart's autobiography, which is very good thus far and seemingly the most thorough wrestling biography ever written when it comes to details. In it he says that he was driving with Lou Thez and they were having a conversation about professional wrestling turning from being a legitimate sport to a work.
Thez essentially said that at one time it was legitimate, but it turned into a work because an actual wrestling match isn't exactly a crowd pleaser compared to boxing.
I've heard that is was never really legitimate and has its origins in traveling carnivals wherein a worker would often wrestle plants in the crowd. He'd be good enough that he'd occasionally take a mark from the crowd and wrestle him legit.
Which version is true?
On top of that, does it differ regionally? I mean it doesn't seem possible that, assuming it was ever legit, that the US, Canada, various places in Europe, and Japan could have all gotten on the bandwagon at the same time.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Nov 20, 2013 19:09:19 GMT -5
So I'm reading Bret Hart's autobiography, which is very good thus far and seemingly the most thorough wrestling biography ever written when it comes to details. In it he says that he was driving with Lou Thez and they were having a conversation about professional wrestling turning from being a legitimate sport to a work. Thez essentially said that at one time it was legitimate, but it turned into a work because an actual wrestling match isn't exactly a crowd pleaser compared to boxing. I've heard that is was never really legitimate and has its origins in traveling carnivals wherein a worker would often wrestle plants in the crowd. He'd be good enough that he'd occasionally take a mark from the crowd and wrestle him legit. Which version is true? On top of that, does it differ regionally? I mean it doesn't seem possible that, assuming it was ever legit, that the US, Canada, various places in Europe, and Japan could have all gotten on the bandwagon at the same time. It was almost never purely legitimate. Ever. It turned into what we know now in the early 1920s, when the Gold Dust Trio reigned supreme. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Dust_Trio |
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Nov 20, 2013 19:44:11 GMT -5
So I'm reading Bret Hart's autobiography, which is very good thus far and seemingly the most thorough wrestling biography ever written when it comes to details. In it he says that he was driving with Lou Thez and they were having a conversation about professional wrestling turning from being a legitimate sport to a work. Thez essentially said that at one time it was legitimate, but it turned into a work because an actual wrestling match isn't exactly a crowd pleaser compared to boxing. I've heard that is was never really legitimate and has its origins in traveling carnivals wherein a worker would often wrestle plants in the crowd. He'd be good enough that he'd occasionally take a mark from the crowd and wrestle him legit. Which version is true? On top of that, does it differ regionally? I mean it doesn't seem possible that, assuming it was ever legit, that the US, Canada, various places in Europe, and Japan could have all gotten on the bandwagon at the same time. It was almost never purely legitimate. Ever. It turned into what we know now in the early 1920s, when the Gold Dust Trio reigned supreme. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Dust_TrioAnd, if you read stories written prior to that, it still usually sounds as it was fixed/pre-determined. |
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Post by Joe Neglia on Nov 20, 2013 21:44:57 GMT -5
And, if you read stories written prior to that, it still usually sounds as it was fixed/pre-determined. Absolutely. Some of it was done shoot-style, but usually those were with wrestling's version of boxing's tomato cans, or the bouts were incredibly boring (and often incredibly long, some lasting hours of just a couple of "rest holds"). |
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Nov 20, 2013 21:50:45 GMT -5
Did wrestling being fixed develop independently throughout the world, or was it gradual via influence?
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ICBM
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Post by ICBM on Nov 20, 2013 22:42:15 GMT -5
I am no expert. Sheldon Goldberg is. I listened to an interview he gave on the history of how modern pro wrestling developed in North America and it was at some point legit in so far as the major attraction matches or cards in major cities. The desire of small er promoters to get in on the action along with its popularity creating a demand, led to the carnival style shows. In this way those promoters were the for bearers of indie wrestling. The major draws started working matches as a way to extend careers and make more money. The promoters wanted their top draws to keep making them money. So it worked out for both sides to fix or work all the matches? Some shoots were still done for a long time. I can't recall when but at some point a sports writer who was smart, got pissed over something with a promoter and did a big reveal. Demand for wrestling dropped off almost over night. The advent of television saved wrestling and brought it to new heights. It was forgotten that the big reveal ever took place and with only word of mouth to remind anyone, the great debate over wrestling being real or fake, created more interest BC there is no such thing as bad press. It was by this same method that Vince McMahon revolutionized wrestling and changed it to what it is today. Where the NWA promoters used TV when it was new. Vince used cable. The phrase, "what's old is new again" is very apt in that version of history.
Right now we cannot conceive of a new medium over taking TV. The Internet augments TV but has never truly over taken it. So wrestling uses the Internet to advertise and keep its face fresh, but does not solely provide the product.
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Nov 20, 2013 23:53:11 GMT -5
I imagine that back in its very early days it was a mix of legitimate contests and pre-determined/fixed ones, depending on what the promoter thought would make them more money. There were always aspects of theatrics in pro wrestling, but to say that it was always legitimate at a time or always "fake" would be a rather broad overgeneralization.
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Nov 20, 2013 23:57:14 GMT -5
And, if you read stories written prior to that, it still usually sounds as it was fixed/pre-determined. Absolutely. Some of it was done shoot-style, but usually those were with wrestling's version of boxing's tomato cans, or the bouts were incredibly boring (and often incredibly long, some lasting hours of just a couple of "rest holds"). I think that the concept of "taking a dive" or as we call it "predetermining" the outcome of a fight goes back pretty far. I think that concept has been commonplace in wrestling in the United States for a very long time. There isn't a ton of timepiece writing about 19th Century wrestling, but what little there is, still shows early signs of pomp & circumstance. And, by the turn of the 20th Century, most of the fast paced (almost vaudeville) style of Catch, (which was also closely tied to the carny cicuit), was pretty much always predetermined. |
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Post by jimmyjames on Nov 21, 2013 5:11:16 GMT -5
All sports up until the mid-20s were pretty shady. What we consider corrupt now, was par for the course. Baseball, Boxing, College/Pro Football, the Olympics, cycling, the big sports of that era, there were different levels of crookedness, and throwing/fixing events was looked the other way, even by sportswriters, or not noticed by the general public. Wrestling was really no different than the other sports. That began to change after the Black Sox scandal led to investigations and greater public scrutiny, and sports began to be more on the up and up. Granted, some like baseball tried to make a concerted effort to change, whereas boxing covered it up and the crookedness was hidden, even as it became more corrupt. With wrestling, while it always had some element of match fixing and predetermined outcomes in it, specifically on the carny/lower levels, in the 20s-30s, I think you saw it becoming more routine in the top levels and in the championship match, and more open and known to the public.
I've heard Lou Thesz say that on documentaries, and because of his background, he would have been one of the last to know intimate details about that era, either first hand accounts involving himself, or stories from others.
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