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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 22, 2013 12:14:00 GMT -5
Had Hogan testified against him instead of claiming personal responsibility (rightly or wrongly, I'm in no position to know or judge), Vince woulda done time.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Nov 22, 2013 16:05:41 GMT -5
Never got the steroid thing in the Benoit murders. Wasn't all that because he had severe brain damage as opposed to using steroids? It seemed an odd thing to focus on. The guy had the brain of something like an 90 year old with alzhiemers and the reaction was 'out it was because he stuck a needle in his ass to make himself larger' Steroids are known to cause mood alterations in long term users. But pop culture has developed an image of "round rage" as being like Bruce Banner turning into the Incredible Hulk and smashing everything in sight. Plus, the exact year had to be mentioned- 2007 was the exact middle-line. Concussion research was just starting up, so people were only barely beginning to see the problems people who've had a lot of concussions could have later in life- but by contrast, steroids were all of sports media's favorite boogeyman. Sports media just wanted the Benoit murders to be about steroids so badly so they'd have some bodies they could point to and say "STEROIDS ARE EVIL!" There is no doubt in my mind that, if Barry Bonds wasn't going for Hank Aaron's home run record in 2007, people would have noticed the concussion issue in the Benoit murders far quicker than they ended up doing it- but because no one in sports wanted Bonds to break the record, they wanted to blame Benoit on steroids- so they did.
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Post by wildojinx on Nov 22, 2013 19:55:38 GMT -5
With the steroid scandal, Bret, Hogan and Piper, three guys who can barely agree on anything, and all who have had issues with Vince in the past, have all said that he was innocent, and at worst either deluded himself that his wrestlers were clean or didn't want to know for sure. As far as the sex scandal, I know they got rid of Mel Philips pretty quick once the allegations surrounding him came up. I never heard Patterson was into young boys, and I don't know much about Terry Garvin to say one way or the other on him. Garvin did disappear after Tom Cole's allegations came up (i dont know if they rehired him or not, but i know he never showed up on tv again), and Patterson was actually accused of sexual harrasment by Murray Hodgson, but the charges ended up being dropped and they brought back Patterson.
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Post by RedSmile on Nov 22, 2013 20:02:23 GMT -5
I still today don't know why the onus is on WWE to test. Where's the outcry for EMI to drug-test artists it signs? Where's the drug testing at Paramount studios or at Wembley stadium before a concert. Vince should just say "screw it, it's entertainment not a legit sport.", I'd be tempted. If a film studio want a guy to have a certain look for a film, they'll be given time before filming to exercise and achieve that look by natural means, while Vince just expects guys to look that way without giving them the time to achieve it through diet and exercise, as well as maintaining a culture where anyone who takes time off to deal with injuries runs the risk of finding that 'creative has nothing for them' when they return. The WWE makes more demands of it's 'independent contractors' than any film studio or record label, I mean they dictate what they wear when travelling for cripes sake, then they turn around and act shocked that guys are taking things in order not to lose their jobs... Yeah, I doubt many will shed a tear for the poor WWE, having to drugtest employees to make sure they're not taking chemicals that will damage their health over the long term. If Vince puts his hands up and says flat out that it's acting, you'd see pretty much anyone who starts to get over joining the SAG or worse, getting decent agents and outside work, which they should be entitled to do as independent contractors... It would be a nightmare scenario for the WWE as they can't fire and replace everyone. How much does the new training center change this point of view?
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 22, 2013 20:15:33 GMT -5
I think the scandals were people trying to take advantage of the fact that the men in question were homosexual. Someone gay is no more likely to be a child abuser than someone straight other than in the mind of a homophobe and back then this probably was a prominent view. For adult wrestlers who were told 'blow me and you'll headline with Hogan' - so what? Do it or don't, your call. How badly do you want the job? when it comes to Pat Patterson, at least, I do agree with you. it always smacked of homophobia to me when people would say things like that. the NWA guys like Prentice and Behrens on the other hand I always believed the rumours. just had mondo creeper vibes, and Dusty confirmed that kind of stuff did go on without naming any names. as for Terry Garvin wasn't there a mountain of evidence against him? I can't see Vince blackballing the guy and never mentioning him again unless he had good reason to suspect it was true.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 22, 2013 20:17:29 GMT -5
Bobby the Brain said it best: there undeniably are wrestlers on steroids and a few have even admitted it. But most of them are at least smart enough that they don't go shooting up backstage in full sight of everyone. Vince also undeniably knew full well that there were wrestlers on steroids and ignored it, knowing good and well that it was illegal. But he never forced any of them to take steroids and never sold any of them drugs himself. And as Bobby the Brain also pointed out, there is plenty of extreme, even perhaps deviant sexual behavior behind the scenes in wrestling, but none of the people who made the accusations were actually forced into any of it-they were willing participants who thought it would somehow help their careers and could just as easily have said no. it's still not right though. that's like saying someone who gives in to his/her boss coercing sexual favors from them is okay. it's a massive abuse of power in a particularly disgusting way.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Nov 22, 2013 20:24:37 GMT -5
How much does the new training center change this point of view? Much too early to say for sure how it affects anything, though I'm not sure how they WWE having a training centre primarily for developmental guys benefits those on the main roster who feel pressured to maintain a certain look or work through injuries... Just means there's a slightly better class of potential replacements waiting should creative have nothing for them.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,318
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Post by Sephiroth on Nov 22, 2013 20:40:48 GMT -5
Bobby the Brain said it best: there undeniably are wrestlers on steroids and a few have even admitted it. But most of them are at least smart enough that they don't go shooting up backstage in full sight of everyone. Vince also undeniably knew full well that there were wrestlers on steroids and ignored it, knowing good and well that it was illegal. But he never forced any of them to take steroids and never sold any of them drugs himself. And as Bobby the Brain also pointed out, there is plenty of extreme, even perhaps deviant sexual behavior behind the scenes in wrestling, but none of the people who made the accusations were actually forced into any of it-they were willing participants who thought it would somehow help their careers and could just as easily have said no. it's still not right though. that's like saying someone who gives in to his/her boss coercing sexual favors from them is okay. it's a massive abuse of power in a particularly disgusting way. That's the thing though; it wasn't really coerced, at least not by the sound of it. Someone who is propositioned and says yes is not the same as someone who is propositioned and gives in under threat.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Nov 22, 2013 20:59:41 GMT -5
it's still not right though. that's like saying someone who gives in to his/her boss coercing sexual favors from them is okay. it's a massive abuse of power in a particularly disgusting way. That's the thing though; it wasn't really coerced, at least not by the sound of it. Someone who is propositioned and says yes is not the same as someone who is propositioned and gives in under threat. this is someone who, as booker/producer/whatever has control over where your career goes. don't want to do it? enjoy jobbing out and then losing your job. and I bet a lot of people did take that option, but when you're a broke-ass wrestler whose in desperate need of money it's beyond exploitative. given how the industry is structured a lot of these men and women have no-one to turn to if their boss starts getting skeezy on them. and the same kind of thing happens in other jobs/industries all the time.
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Post by goodbyehorses on Nov 22, 2013 21:11:17 GMT -5
For adult wrestlers who were told 'blow me and you'll headline with Hogan' - so what? Do it or don't, your call. How badly do you want the job? I need to see Windy City Heat again.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,318
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Post by Sephiroth on Nov 22, 2013 21:18:19 GMT -5
That's the thing though; it wasn't really coerced, at least not by the sound of it. Someone who is propositioned and says yes is not the same as someone who is propositioned and gives in under threat. this is someone who, as booker/producer/whatever has control over where your career goes. don't want to do it? enjoy jobbing out and then losing your job. and I bet a lot of people did take that option, but when you're a broke-ass wrestler whose in desperate need of money it's beyond exploitative. given how the industry is structured a lot of these men and women have no-one to turn to if their boss starts getting skeezy on them. and the same kind of thing happens in other jobs/industries all the time. Once again, Bobby the Brain said it best; he washed the other wrestlers cars, carried their luggage, ran errands for them-he never had a relationship with them to try to get ahead in the business. There is no price tag on dignity.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Nov 22, 2013 21:30:42 GMT -5
People sleeping their way to the top happens in every industry. It's not really a big deal.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,318
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Post by Sephiroth on Nov 24, 2013 10:36:32 GMT -5
Steroids are known to cause mood alterations in long term users. But pop culture has developed an image of "round rage" as being like Bruce Banner turning into the Incredible Hulk and smashing everything in sight. Plus, the exact year had to be mentioned- 2007 was the exact middle-line. Concussion research was just starting up, so people were only barely beginning to see the problems people who've had a lot of concussions could have later in life- but by contrast, steroids were all of sports media's favorite boogeyman. Sports media just wanted the Benoit murders to be about steroids so badly so they'd have some bodies they could point to and say "STEROIDS ARE EVIL!" There is no doubt in my mind that, if Barry Bonds wasn't going for Hank Aaron's home run record in 2007, people would have noticed the concussion issue in the Benoit murders far quicker than they ended up doing it- but because no one in sports wanted Bonds to break the record, they wanted to blame Benoit on steroids- so they did. I compare Benoit to another infamous case when Craig Titus, a former Mr. Olympia contender, and his wife Kelly Ryan, a fitness model, were arrested for murdering their secretary. Of course, many in the press immediately declared "roid rage," and lord knows the two of them fit the model of roided out freaks. But the investigation ended up revealing that even thought these two were the image of muscle and fitness fanatics they actually lead a very extreme lifestyle-using and selling very hard drugs, steroids being the least of them, all kinds of outrageous partying and sexual exploits. Some within bodybuilding even declared that they weren't at all surprised such a tragedy had happened-they were more surprised that it hadn't happened far sooner. The steroid trial against Vince, and later on the Benoit murders, really brought to light the harsh reality behind wrestling that really was not at all surprising when you thought about it, but that had been denied for so very long.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Nov 24, 2013 10:49:20 GMT -5
The prosecution f***ed up a subpoena (I think Vince's secretary; we need AndrewIsGood to find the old Observer with the full court details), and had that not been f***ed up, Vince would have been found guilty. They had him dead to rights. Don't believe the hype. He lucked out. He didn't "beat the government." The prosecution were idiots, and Vince truly believed he was going to prison; so much so that he restructured the company hierarchy in the event that he was.
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