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Post by MichaelMartini on Dec 24, 2013 23:04:26 GMT -5
He may not be the best commentator ever but he's the top candidate for best play by play guy. He made it seem like a legit sport, no matter how crazy it got. He knew the names of moves, he knew guy's history, he would get excited when it was warranted. I love Vince with Jesse and Gorilla with Heenan but like Cole, they relied too heavily on broad, repetitive terms and sayings. I could easily see JR covering other sports (like Schivane), so he was the perfect guy for the more adult Attitude era.
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Post by sabretooth on Dec 24, 2013 23:20:03 GMT -5
You know who was really good? Lance Russell. Ol' Banana Nose himself. |
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 24, 2013 23:25:26 GMT -5
Jim Ross is the best commentator ever I feel, and while I didn't get to hear his Mid south stuff, I think his Attitude Era stuff really is what puts him over the top. You go back and watch some of that stuff, and a lot of it was really bad, but when the stuff was bad, JR would call it like he saw it. He wouldn't completely bury it at times, like Michael Cole does when something is bad on. He's subtle, but you know how he feels. And sometimes, he'll do a deal after a bad segment and say, it's time to get serious. JR gave a great analogy on the Jim Cornette experience podcast. The wrestler composes the music, and the commentator writes the lyrics. And that's one reason why the selfie was panned by everyone (and to their credit, Michael Cole and JBL brought it up on their podcast that what they did was panned, and that's all they said, they didn't defend it or anything). JR also talked about how he can make a wrestler look good or bad, no matter what's going on in the ring, but the wrestlers do have to pick up the slack as well.
Listening to Review a Wai and them going back to old podcasts helped me appreciate it more, because they'll make mention of things said on commentary, and all the Attitude Era stuff, some stuff is good, some stuff is bad, but JR is always good and always makes the product better, and with a crazy product that they had back then, they needed Jim Ross to call that. Like, one bad line with Michael Cole was him repeating "the dog poop, the dog poop" when Rock hit Bulldog with the Rock bottom through some. If JR called it, he would have said something sarcastic, but it wouldn't have been ridiculous or over the top. He was the perfect straight man.
Not to bury Michael Cole again, but when Cindy Lauper and Wendy Richter came out, and he just started burying it before they did anything (though a lot of this could be a Vince McMahon thing), it's just nails on the chalkboard bad. And that's why his whole character as a heel play by play by was terrible, because there's no subtlety. If something is bad, I know it's bad, you don't have to yell it at me. But, I would be entertained by subtle jabs and funny quips, like JR would give out. Or two big men would come out and he'd say, this won't be a 5 star match, but it's going to be a fight. So he kinda is saying, the wrestling is going to be bad, but they're not concerned about that, they want to hurt each other.
Yeah, like, everyone can have opinions, and I don't mean to pick on you, but it's like you're saying "I don't think Picasso was a good painter". "I don't think Tom Hanks was a good actor". "I don't think the Beatles were a good band". There seem to be a few of these, and unpopular opinion threads are popular, so I'm gonna join in with this one. Sometimes, people with "unpopular" opinions just have bad taste.
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Post by JTG Fan on Dec 24, 2013 23:29:01 GMT -5
Listening to Review a Wai and them going back to old podcasts helped me appreciate it more, because they'll make mention of things said on commentary, and all the Attitude Era stuff, some stuff is good, some stuff is bad, but JR is always good and always makes the product better, and with a crazy product that they had back then, they needed Jim Ross to call that. Like, one bad line with Michael Cole was him repeating "the dog poop, the dog poop" when Rock hit Bulldog with the Rock bottom through some. If JR called it, he would have said something sarcastic, but it wouldn't have been ridiculous or over the top. He was the perfect straight man. Right? That's why it's so funny to think how desperately Russo wanted to push JR out the door in favor of anybody else. And it turns out nobody else, whether it's Michael Cole in the WWF, Tony Schiavone in WCW, or Mike Tenay in TNA could ever come close to making Russo's silliness seem worth a damn other than JR. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2013 23:32:38 GMT -5
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Post by Emmet Russell on Dec 24, 2013 23:34:57 GMT -5
I love JR. He will forever be the best commentator for me, just like how JR says that Gordon Solie was the best announcer he's ever heard. Solie fit in great during his era but he definitely wouldn't have suited the attitude era (could you imagine?), but JR is a guy that can work the Gordon Solie style while also changing his style when working in the wild, unpredictable time that was the Attitude era.
Sure, I used to get annoyed when he'd keep calling Christian "Edge" or Edge as "Christian", but everyone has those slip ups from time-to-time. No one was capable of telling a story in a match like JR was. Even at his worst he was still better than anyone else they had at the time. If they decided to bring JR back tomorrow for a full-time role at the announce table, I would not argue in the slightest. Might even make the 3 hour shows a bit more bearable to sit through; that's the greatest compliment of all.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 25, 2013 0:14:35 GMT -5
Well, my personal favorite commentary team is Schiavone/Heenan/Tenay. Contrary to popular belief, I feel like they had excellent chemistry and each played their role really, really well. However, to think that JR is a bad announcer by any stretch of the imagination...I dunno. We're all entitled to our own opinions, but the man's a goddamn legend as far as I'm concerned. Oh god, Tenay was awesome once he turned into a snippy woman-hating jerk... |
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 25, 2013 0:15:21 GMT -5
I love JR. He will forever be the best commentator for me, just like how JR says that Gordon Solie was the best announcer he's ever heard. Solie fit in great during his era but he definitely wouldn't have suited the attitude era (could you imagine?), but JR is a guy that can work the Gordon Solie style while also changing his style when working in the wild, unpredictable time that was the Attitude era. Sure, I used to get annoyed when he'd keep calling Christian "Edge" or Edge as "Christian", but everyone has those slip ups from time-to-time. No one was capable of telling a story in a match like JR was. Even at his worst he was still better than anyone else they had at the time. If they decided to bring JR back tomorrow for a full-time role at the announce table, I would not argue in the slightest. Might even make the 3 hour shows a bit more bearable to sit through; that's the greatest compliment of all. Don't forget how everyone with "Chris" in their name was "Chris Jericho" to JR. |
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Dec 25, 2013 0:20:07 GMT -5
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS THIS THREAD IS BROKEN IN HALF!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 0:26:08 GMT -5
There's a reason the Undertaker requested that JR call his WrestleMania matches with HBK and HHH. Whether or not the guy is the greatest ever is up for debate, as I haven't heard enough Gordon Solie to judge for myself, but the guy is and always will be the voice of the WWE.
In terms of play by play he wasn't perfect but JR certainly knew his shit, and in terms of storytelling the guy simply cannot be beat. Look at how many iconic calls JR has: Foley/Taker Hell in a Cell, Austin winning the championship, Austin turning heel, the Jeff Hardy/Taker ladder match; I could go on. Michael Cole has been around for about 15 years now and he has one single memorable commentary moment to his name, and that's Foley's first title win. I don't think that's down to just the time period, either, as Cole has been there for just as many memorable moments as JR has - it's just that the latter was really that damn good.
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Post by Some Guy on Dec 25, 2013 2:12:46 GMT -5
If you were one of JR's boys then everything you did would be sold to the max. If you weren't the the honest truth is that often he could merely go through the motions a bit. If you can sell as he did for say Austin or Foley, there's no reason why he couldn't for others - but he rarely (if ever) did. I don't think he put the Rock over with anywhere close to the same level as he did Austin. Granted the Rock didn't need it (nor did Austin for that matter) but in comparison with JR's boys vs non-JR's boys, one sounded awesome the other by comparison sounded phoned-in. Might want to try and watch Backlash 2000 and say that. |
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Post by Some Guy on Dec 25, 2013 2:21:41 GMT -5
I just don't see it. Granted, his fall off was sharp - towards the end his commentary was about on par with Cole - but at his peak nobody sold big match atmosphere like JR. I kind of disagree. Look at how Monsoon would call an occasion. "Everyone on their feet. There's 93,000 fans standing. The roof has been blown away. This is what it's all about, this is what brought this sizeable chunk of humanity here today." ...basically just leaving marks at home screaming "WAAAAAAH THIS IS AWESOME!!!!" I'm not sure JR could do that. I'm not sure if faced with a WM3 or a WM6 or one of the old-school epic WMs if he could do that sell. I'd bet he'd get right down talking about college backgrounds or recapping recent storylines. I think in terms of occasion commentating, even if some disliked his style, Monsoon was the king. Monsoon may have relied on cliches but in temrs of build-up to an event or a match JR relied too heavily on preprepared notes and would often allow the occasion to pass him by. I'm thinking of the Rock vs Hogan match at WM18 and I know the difference is Hogan was supposed to be heel so it's difficult for him in that respect but I think it's typical with how he called a lot of big-occasion matches. He'd talk just about the match, ignoring the occasion. When Hogan tore his shirt what was the biggest pop of the night to that point was ignored as JR was relaying information about how may people had attended Wrestlemania up until that point. I'd have loved to have seen Monsoon be in his commentating prime to call Austin and Rock at WM17. One thing I never felt JR had and that's 'occasion awareness'. He'd get bogged down in college backgrounds and facts and figures that you almost wanted to scream "who cares, sell the occasion!" Honestly, I really don't mean any disrespect to him since he's gone, but Monsoon sucked as an announcer. There's a reason he consistently won "Worst Television Announcer" and generally did a poor job at calling Wrestlemania. Granted, I wasn't alive for most of his time since I'm only 23, but I've seen enough of his calls to know how frustrating he was to listen to. If it wasn't for Heenan being amazing the entire time, he would have sunk the Rumble in 92 just by his annoying crap constantly repeating the same stuff over and over and over again. As for the WM18 stuff, the Hogan shirt rip was a two second pop thing and he properly went along with Lawler's excitement during the mega pop that happened with him hulking up later. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 25, 2013 3:16:37 GMT -5
I just don't see it. Granted, his fall off was sharp - towards the end his commentary was about on par with Cole - but at his peak nobody sold big match atmosphere like JR. I kind of disagree. Look at how Monsoon would call an occasion. "Everyone on their feet. There's 93,000 fans standing. The roof has been blown away. This is what it's all about, this is what brought this sizeable chunk of humanity here today." ...basically just leaving marks at home screaming "WAAAAAAH THIS IS AWESOME!!!!" The first time, yes, but had the same routine, almost word-for-word, for every PPV. After the third or fourth time it just came across as rehearsed and phoney. Gorilla was fun, and a true product of his era, but once you'd heard him call one PPV you heard him call them all. With JR, even though he got a little carried away with the innane college references and story recaps (although the latter was mandated by Vince, something Monsoon never had to deal with), once the action heated up he'd lose his shit and really sell the moment, even if what was happening in the ring wasn't that epic. IMO, JR in his prime could lift a match several notches, while Gorilla rarely added anything (his interactions with Ventura and Heenan notwithstanding). I can rattle off dozens of memorable unique calls JR made that were, yet remember not a single call Gorilla made that wasn't pulled from his list of cliches - and Gorilla was the voice of wrestling throughout my childhood. |
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ratetankmark
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Post by ratetankmark on Dec 25, 2013 3:59:54 GMT -5
I've always thought Heenan was a better announcer than Ross.
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ratetankmark
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Post by ratetankmark on Dec 25, 2013 4:04:29 GMT -5
Jim Ross is the best commentator ever I feel, and while I didn't get to hear his Mid south stuff, I think his Attitude Era stuff really is what puts him over the top. You go back and watch some of that stuff, and a lot of it was really bad, but when the stuff was bad, JR would call it like he saw it. He wouldn't completely bury it at times, like Michael Cole does when something is bad on. He's subtle, but you know how he feels. And sometimes, he'll do a deal after a bad segment and say, it's time to get serious. JR gave a great analogy on the Jim Cornette experience podcast. The wrestler composes the music, and the commentator writes the lyrics. And that's one reason why the selfie was panned by everyone (and to their credit, Michael Cole and JBL brought it up on their podcast that what they did was panned, and that's all they said, they didn't defend it or anything). JR also talked about how he can make a wrestler look good or bad, no matter what's going on in the ring, but the wrestlers do have to pick up the slack as well. Listening to Review a Wai and them going back to old podcasts helped me appreciate it more, because they'll make mention of things said on commentary, and all the Attitude Era stuff, some stuff is good, some stuff is bad, but JR is always good and always makes the product better, and with a crazy product that they had back then, they needed Jim Ross to call that. Like, one bad line with Michael Cole was him repeating "the dog poop, the dog poop" when Rock hit Bulldog with the Rock bottom through some. If JR called it, he would have said something sarcastic, but it wouldn't have been ridiculous or over the top. He was the perfect straight man. Not to bury Michael Cole again, but when Cindy Lauper and Wendy Richter came out, and he just started burying it before they did anything (though a lot of this could be a Vince McMahon thing), it's just nails on the chalkboard bad. And that's why his whole character as a heel play by play by was terrible, because there's no subtlety. If something is bad, I know it's bad, you don't have to yell it at me. But, I would be entertained by subtle jabs and funny quips, like JR would give out. Or two big men would come out and he'd say, this won't be a 5 star match, but it's going to be a fight. So he kinda is saying, the wrestling is going to be bad, but they're not concerned about that, they want to hurt each other. Yeah, like, everyone can have opinions, and I don't mean to pick on you, but it's like you're saying "I don't think Picasso was a good painter". "I don't think Tom Hanks was a good actor". "I don't think the Beatles were a good band". There seem to be a few of these, and unpopular opinion threads are popular, so I'm gonna join in with this one. Sometimes, people with "unpopular" opinions just have bad taste. I know and to be honest you've put forward a fantastic case for Ross being a great announcer  I don't think Ross is bad by any stretch of the imagination, I should've titled the Thread "I don't think Ross is as good as people say" he's good but I don't think he's the greatest announcer of all time, I've always preferred people like Bobby Heenan. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 4:31:43 GMT -5
JR got pretty lousy in recent years, but in his prime his commentary was excellent.
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Post by Chip on Dec 25, 2013 4:37:18 GMT -5
JR is the only WWE commentator that ever felt genuine to me. Everyone else felt like they were playing a character and parroting the companies wishes/Vince.
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Post by 67 more on Dec 25, 2013 4:40:46 GMT -5
Gorilla/Jesse is my favourite commentary team of all time but JR is without a doubt IMO the best commentator wrestling's ever had.
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Boo!
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Post by Boo! on Dec 25, 2013 5:06:37 GMT -5
I think WM18 is a prime example of the difference between JR and Monsoon in terms of getting the occasion. If it not for Lawler's excitable interjections (Tyson/Ali, young lion/old lion, his various screams and yelps etc) then the calling of the match would have been pretty cold.
Often Lawler had to interrupt JR mid-sentence (either under instruction to do so or feeling himself that he wasn't really getting over the occasion) in order to give the commentary a kick in the pants. JR's "He beat Andre the Giant with that move!" was an epic but in truth only contribution to that match. If you're the greatest commentator of all time and you play second fiddle to the colour guy in THAT match of all matches, I think questions have to be asked.
Now it may have bee JR had an off night. It may have been that as neither Rock or Hogan were "his boys" that 'excitement sell' didn't come naturally do him or it could have been that he was exposed as not being someone who could sell an event or occasion/feeling. Monsoon would have sold the damn entrance alone to the point where he'd probably provide an audio sound clip that'd be repeated for ever more in historical montages and flashbacks. Other than that Andre line, JR's contribution to selling perhaps the most easiest selling match in history was very poor hence why Lawler had to constantly interrupt
Monsoon certainly had flaws. He didn't really have the ability to call a great technical match and would have been simply appalling in NWA/WCW and JR made the switch between 'codes' far more successfully than Monsoon would who could often get bogged down in nonsense ignoring the matches and he missed a LOT of calls - but in terms of what's best suited to WWE's style, I think Monsoon wins hands down. He's able to sell characters/the occasion better than JR. Maybe JR is wrestling's best ever commentator or maybe Solie is but for the specific task of being the greatest WWE commentator, I think Monsoon wins hands down.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 10:23:30 GMT -5
I think WM18 is a prime example of the difference between JR and Monsoon in terms of getting the occasion. If it not for Lawler's excitable interjections (Tyson/Ali, young lion/old lion, his various screams and yelps etc) then the calling of the match would have been pretty cold. Often Lawler had to interrupt JR mid-sentence (either under instruction to do so or feeling himself that he wasn't really getting over the occasion) in order to give the commentary a kick in the pants. JR's "He beat Andre the Giant with that move!" was an epic but in truth only contribution to that match. If you're the greatest commentator of all time and you play second fiddle to the colour guy in THAT match of all matches, I think questions have to be asked. Now it may have bee JR had an off night. It may have been that as neither Rock or Hogan were "his boys" that 'excitement sell' didn't come naturally do him or it could have been that he was exposed as not being someone who could sell an event or occasion/feeling. Monsoon would have sold the damn entrance alone to the point where he'd probably provide an audio sound clip that'd be repeated for ever more in historical montages and flashbacks. Other than that Andre line, JR's contribution to selling perhaps the most easiest selling match in history was very poor hence why Lawler had to constantly interrupt Monsoon certainly had flaws. He didn't really have the ability to call a great technical match and would have been simply appalling in NWA/WCW and JR made the switch between 'codes' far more successfully than Monsoon would who could often get bogged down in nonsense ignoring the matches and he missed a LOT of calls - but in terms of what's best suited to WWE's style, I think Monsoon wins hands down. He's able to sell characters/the occasion better than JR. Maybe JR is wrestling's best ever commentator or maybe Solie is but for the specific task of being the greatest WWE commentator, I think Monsoon wins hands down. Really, the idea of JR playing favorites with commentary is laughable. I've been rewatching some older (2003-2006) WWE PPVs lately and he'll put over the main event regardless of who's in it. Watch the Cena/Edge TLC match for a perfect example - he puts over Cena so hard that it gets annoying at times. "AN FU OFF THE LADDER, FROM THE BADDEST SON OF A BITCH THAT EVER LIVED!" And JR sure as shit could "sell a feeling" - hell, that's why he's remembered so fondly. Look at any of the calls I listed in my prior post, or look at the Backlash 2000 HHH/Rock match as someone else said. |
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I don't think Ross is bad by any stretch of the imagination, I should've titled the Thread "I don't think Ross is as good as people say" he's good but I don't think he's the greatest announcer of all time, I've always preferred people like Bobby Heenan.
