Turd Ferguson
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Post by Turd Ferguson on Dec 31, 2013 8:45:26 GMT -5
Are the ongoing conflicts in Star Wars or Warcraft/Starcraft the only kind of fantasy stories that don't require MacGuffins? Or do aspects (The Death Star, Kalimdor/Northrend/Pandaria, The Force) turn into MacGuffins themselves?
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Dec 31, 2013 8:52:12 GMT -5
I don't know how the Force or the Deathstar could possibly be Macguffin's because they actually actively do things in the story.
I thought Macguffin's were something that drives the plot but ultimately does nothing and is more or less forgotten about as the plot matures.
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Turd Ferguson
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Post by Turd Ferguson on Dec 31, 2013 9:00:16 GMT -5
Well it's any object that drives the story, like The One Ring. It is the ultimate MacGuffin, in that it drives the plot and does do some stuff (plus will completely revitalize Sauron if he were to posses it. So it DOES do something in this case.
So is the One Ring not a MacGuffin? The Arkenstone does nothing, neither did the Silmaril.
George Lucas himself has stated that Artoo is actually a MacGuffin.
That's why I wanted to pose the question to you peeps to see what the consensus was.
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Post by Push R Truth on Dec 31, 2013 9:07:33 GMT -5
I learned something today. I always thought McGuffin's didn't do anything beyond give motivation to the plot.
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Post by Red Impact on Dec 31, 2013 9:11:35 GMT -5
A MacGuffin is an object that drives the story or is sought after, but is ultimately not explained or defined. So the Death Star wouldn't count, we know what it is and why it's important. The briefcase in Pulp Fiction is, because we don't know what's in it. Lucas calling Artoo a Macguffin is probably not accurate, he's a Deus Ex Machina, but again we know what he is. The Force isn't really a MacGuffin, because it's not really an object being sought after. The war is the plot, the Force is just a vaguely defined (until the prequels) tool.
The Arkenstone is interesting, it's not really one because, unlike a true MacGuffin, it really doesn't do anything. It's a symbol, like a crown, and it's not carrying any hidden power, it's value is it's beauty and the emphasis the dwarves place on it. The One Ring is closer, we do know what it can do, but it also has to have a power beyond invisibility to be so important to Sauron that is never fully defined in the LotR trilogy, since that ring can control the others.
And sure, it's possible. Fantasy is a broad genre that can incorporate many types of stories. Pathfinder from Orson Scott Card doesn't have a MacGuffin, it's a sci-fi-fantasy mix.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Dec 31, 2013 9:11:54 GMT -5
If we're going by the Hitchcock sense of the MacGuffin, I don't think any of your examples qualify.
If we're going by George Lucas' definition, than pretty much anything can be a MacGuffin.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 31, 2013 9:33:29 GMT -5
That's only proof that nobody should listen to George Lucas.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 9:44:50 GMT -5
It's very possible. It all depends on the story you're doing. I'm writing a sci-fi/fantasy story right now with no MacGuffins. It's really not that hard, you just have to give people a conceptual reason to do something than insert an object somewhere. Not that MacGuffins are bad, because IRL MacGuffins are very often why we do things (get a job to afford your first car; search for a ring to give when you propose, etc.). But it isn't always necessary, especially when you throw in someone who's angry about something.
Look at politics in Ancient Rome. Conflicts over who was taking power or who was losing power weren't because someone had an artifact in their hands, but because someone had the all-powerful charisma with which to win the plebs, or had good connections, or something like that. Whereas you take a story based on a treasure-hunter like for example, Indiana Jones, or Tomb Raider or Uncharted, and because the main character of each searches for MacGuffins for a living, it's a lot tougher to separate from the story, because it's so intrinsic.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 31, 2013 9:57:26 GMT -5
there's no Macguffin plot to speak of in A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 10:02:34 GMT -5
there's no Macguffin plot to speak of in A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones. {Spoiler}Dany's dragon eggs. But what separates that from The One Ring is that it's important in a sub-plot, or more accurately, a sub-plot of a sub-plot, rather than pushing the story directly. I haven't read the books but I've watched every episode so far and I know George Martin's had a hand in writing and overseeing the production. And I have to admit, I'm pretty impressed by what he's pulled off, to the point that where when I see some of his decisions, I wind up applauding and saying "That's what I would have done!"
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 31, 2013 10:04:56 GMT -5
there's no Macguffin plot to speak of in A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones. {Spoiler}Dany's dragon eggs. But what separates that from The One Ring is that it's important in a sub-plot, or more accurately, a sub-plot of a sub-plot, rather than pushing the story directly. I haven't read the books but I've watched every episode so far and I know George Martin's had a hand in writing and overseeing the production. And I have to admit, I'm pretty impressed by what he's pulled off, to the point that where when I see some of his decisions, I wind up applauding and saying "That's what I would have done!" I don't think that really counts, though. it's not something people go out on a quest to retrieve or fight over.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2013 10:08:00 GMT -5
{Spoiler}Dany's dragon eggs. But what separates that from The One Ring is that it's important in a sub-plot, or more accurately, a sub-plot of a sub-plot, rather than pushing the story directly. I haven't read the books but I've watched every episode so far and I know George Martin's had a hand in writing and overseeing the production. And I have to admit, I'm pretty impressed by what he's pulled off, to the point that where when I see some of his decisions, I wind up applauding and saying "That's what I would have done!" I don't think that really counts, though. it's not something people go out on a quest to retrieve or fight over. What about {Spoiler}Viserys trying to confiscate them (lest she wake THA DRAGON~!)?
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Post by Legion on Dec 31, 2013 10:35:46 GMT -5
I don't think that really counts, though. it's not something people go out on a quest to retrieve or fight over. What about {Spoiler}Viserys trying to confiscate them (lest she wake THA DRAGON~!)? That was more him being a dick than questing for them. Side note, I really f***ing hate the term 'MacGuffin.'
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 31, 2013 10:54:48 GMT -5
A Macguffin is not the same thing as a plot device. Key to something being a Macguffin I think is that it is interchangable with anything else. When in a spy movie the spies are trying to possess an object like some microfilm, or diamonds, or whatever, that is a Macguffin. The Maltese Falcon is probably the clearest example of this. The objects could be swapped out with anything else and the plot would still work. As usual, TV Tropes has a pretty good discussion of it. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffinI think that excludes The One Ring. It is practically a character itself, with how it corrupts people.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 31, 2013 11:20:17 GMT -5
What about {Spoiler}Viserys trying to confiscate them (lest she wake THA DRAGON~!)? That was more him being a dick than questing for them. Side note, I really f***ing hate the term 'MacGuffin.' it's probably one of the most misused literary terms around. a MacGuffin is an item that serves as motivation for a plot but actually has no other effect on the story beyond that. it can be switched with literally anything else and the plot wouldn't be affected at all. the One Ring: not a MacGuffin; it corrupts people who touch it and causes wars just by virtue of existing. Dany's Dragon's eggs: not a MacGuffin; nobody fights or quests for them and they actually have an effect on the plot once the dragons are born Marcellus Wallace's Briefcase: IS a MacGuffin, beyond Jules and Vince looking for it and bringing it to Marcellus it has no effect on the plot whatsoever and could have been literally anything. the only term that gets misused more often is "Deconstruction". I remember some schmuck on TVTropes listed Bendis' entire run on Avengers (!!!) as a deconstruction mostly because a bunch of bad stuff happens in it. and it's still up there for god-knows-what reason. they even have a trope called Not a Deconstruction for it now.
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Dec 31, 2013 11:25:46 GMT -5
{Spoiler}Dany's dragon eggs. But what separates that from The One Ring is that it's important in a sub-plot, or more accurately, a sub-plot of a sub-plot, rather than pushing the story directly. I haven't read the books but I've watched every episode so far and I know George Martin's had a hand in writing and overseeing the production. And I have to admit, I'm pretty impressed by what he's pulled off, to the point that where when I see some of his decisions, I wind up applauding and saying "That's what I would have done!" I don't think that really counts, though. it's not something people go out on a quest to retrieve or fight over. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}Euron Greyjoy sent out a chunk of the Ironborn to go get the dragons, at the very least. I know there is more, though.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 31, 2013 11:28:08 GMT -5
I don't think that really counts, though. it's not something people go out on a quest to retrieve or fight over. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}Euron Greyjoy sent out a chunk of the Ironborn to go get the dragons, at the very least. I know there is more, though. that's irrelevant to the definition, though. the Dragons themselves have a massive effect on the plot. a Macguffin is a plot device that serves no purpose beyond motivating someone to do something.
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Dec 31, 2013 11:30:15 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Euron Greyjoy sent out a chunk of the Ironborn to go get the dragons, at the very least. I know there is more, though. that's irrelevant to the definition, though. the Dragons themselves have a massive effect on the plot. a Macguffin is a plot device that serves no purpose beyond motivating someone to do something. I also know the Martels sent out a son of their's to do the same, but he was a side character. Does that count?
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Dec 31, 2013 11:35:44 GMT -5
that's irrelevant to the definition, though. the Dragons themselves have a massive effect on the plot. a Macguffin is a plot device that serves no purpose beyond motivating someone to do something. I also know the Martels sent out a son of their's to do the same, but he was a side character. Does that count? no it doesn't because the dragons themselves aren't a MacGuffin. people being motivated to find something doesn't make it a MacGuffin. it having a trivial effect on the plot, being interchangeable and ONLY existing to provide a motivation is what makes it a MacGuffin. the dragons aren't a macguffin because they have their own motivations, cause untold havoc when left unchecked and are the fantasy equivalent of a living nuclear weapon and a total gamechanger that renders any battle against them almost hopeless. if instead of dragons people were invading Meereen to get Dany's jewel or something, that'd be a MacGuffin, but the dragons' effect on the plot is far from trivial.
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Dec 31, 2013 12:00:35 GMT -5
Most of the Dragonlance novels lack a true MacGuffin.
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