SOR
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Posts: 2,611
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Post by SOR on Jan 16, 2014 10:49:33 GMT -5
Yeah, A Russo thread. I'm personally a Bischoff guy but I don't hate Russo like a lot of people do.
Quick question, how come Russo gets hate in regards to putting title belts on non wrestlers when Vince McMahon and the WWE are just as guilty (If not more) and actually invented it?
List of non wrestlers Russo put title belts on: David Arquette (WCW World Heavyweight Title), Ed Ferrara (WCW Cruiserweight), Eric Bischoff (WCW Hardcore) Pacman Jones (TNA World Tag Title), Vince Russo (WCW World Heavyweight Title)
List of non wrestlers Vince McMahon put title belts on (Not including Hardcore): Debra (WWF Womens), Harvey Wippleman (WWF Womens), 77 Year Old Moolah (WWF Womens), Miss Kitty (WWF Womens) Shane McMahon (WWF European), Stephanie McMahon (WWF Womens), and Vince McMahon (WWF World Heavyweight, ECW World Heavyweight and a Royal Rumble Victory)
Now granted a majority of Russo's were all in a 6 month gap he seems to be the man credited with the non wrestlers winning titles but the WWF did it well before him so why does he get the heat for it? The WWF list is much bigger and would have completely mauled the times Russo did it had I included WWF Hardcore Title reigns which includes such champions as Terri Runnels, Gerald Brisco who was in his 50's, Pat Patterson who was almost in his 60's and my personal favourite, Godfathers Ho.
So, why does Russo get the blame for this one?
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Jan 16, 2014 11:26:05 GMT -5
Those Non Russo wins are for Joke titles (Or were at the time).
The Vince WWF title win was actually a pretty well done story, Plus Stone Cold beat the crap out of HHH AFTER HHH battered Vince and put Vince on top FTW.
And he Vacated it the next show.
His ECW win was awesome, Crazy Vince was great
Russo put Major titles on Non Wrestlers (Hardcore aside), That's stupid
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Post by JTG Fan on Jan 16, 2014 11:29:48 GMT -5
List of non wrestlers Vince McMahon put title belts on (Not including Hardcore): Debra (WWF Womens), Harvey Wippleman (WWF Womens), 77 Year Old Moolah (WWF Womens), Miss Kitty (WWF Womens) Shane McMahon (WWF European), Stephanie McMahon (WWF Womens), and Vince McMahon (WWF World Heavyweight, ECW World Heavyweight and a Royal Rumble Victory) You do realize that Debra, Shane, and Vince were all Russo booking, right?
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jan 16, 2014 11:31:39 GMT -5
He had a wrestler stop in mid match because he stopped following the script. He had the announcers chide him for not following the script. He had the announcer praise a guy for following the script as he was getting hit with a finisher. I've been watching wrestling for 25 years, and that was the worst, most nonsensical, disrespectful to the business piece of booking I have ever seen. www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cZtuwjdPJUDo not embed youtube videos with WWE footage unless it's from WWE's account
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SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
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Post by SOR on Jan 16, 2014 11:34:15 GMT -5
The Vince WWF title win was actually a pretty well done story, Plus Stone Cold beat the crap out of HHH AFTER HHH battered Vince and put Vince on top FTW. And he Vacated it the next show. Russo did the exact same thing and gets a ton of hate for it though. His was pretty cool as well. Goldberg speared him through a cage but Russo technically escaped and won. Came out the next week on Nitro (Maybe even Thunder) and vacated the belt. List of non wrestlers Vince McMahon put title belts on (Not including Hardcore): Debra (WWF Womens), Harvey Wippleman (WWF Womens), 77 Year Old Moolah (WWF Womens), Miss Kitty (WWF Womens) Shane McMahon (WWF European), Stephanie McMahon (WWF Womens), and Vince McMahon (WWF World Heavyweight, ECW World Heavyweight and a Royal Rumble Victory) You do realize that Debra, Shane, and Vince were all Russo booking, right? McMahon has final say and is enough of an expert to know a bad idea when he hears one.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Jan 16, 2014 11:36:03 GMT -5
WCW title/Tag titles were not jokes
And Russo's title win was f***ing stupid and like most of his dreck, Ill thought out
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 16, 2014 11:48:53 GMT -5
According to Lance Storm, Russo told Booker T that their finish was gonna be a no contest, but then the next week he declared himself the world champ.
I think Russo has some good ideas, but the issue is he seems like when he gets an idea in his head he has to do it. Then he'll get another idea and completely forget about the first idea. I read his book "How WCW Killed Vince Russo", and he even writes like that. One paragraph he's talking about dealing with wrestlers, the next he's taking his son to some rock concert.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jan 16, 2014 12:21:05 GMT -5
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 16, 2014 13:03:41 GMT -5
"I'm going to tell you something right now that you will absolutely not agree with, but I've been a wrestling fan my whole life and I will live and die by this. It's hard enough, believe me, I write this s***, it is hard enough to get somebody over. You will never ever, ever, ever, ever see the Japanese wrestlers or the Mexican wrestlers over in American mainstream wrestling. I’m an American. If I’m watching wrestling here in America, I don’t give a s*** about a Japanese guy. I don’t give a s*** about a Mexican guy. I’m from America, and that’s what I want to see."
He gets hate because he's a hateful guy. Makes him easy to hate for other stupid things he does.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 13:10:07 GMT -5
One of the things people forget since it's been so long is that the McMahon royal rumble and title wins WERE bashed pretty heavily when they happened. A lot of folks online absolutely hated them. It's faded a bit since it pretty much turned out for the best but at the time, phew, lot of people were mad.
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 16, 2014 13:10:37 GMT -5
See, the Vince stuff made sense within the confines of the story. He was a corrupt boss doing what it took to stick it to Austin (and the fans, by comparison). So showing blatant nepotism and putting himself in the title hunt works. Also, we shouln't forget that even if he's not a fulltime wrestler, he is heavily involved in the industry and was jacked to the gills, so at the very least him being able to kick ass was believable. Even then, these weren't popular moves by a long shot.
But Arquette doesn't have the same storyline justification, even he thought it was a terrible idea.
And I'm not really sure I get the point of this comparison. It's not like everyone praises McMahon for everything and piles on Russo. McMahons get a ton of hate for the sleazy and stupid things that have gone on in the company and business, it's not like there's any lack of criticism. You can't really say "the stupid stuff this guy did isn't stupid because these people did stupid stuff too."
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khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,600
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Post by khali on Jan 16, 2014 14:01:55 GMT -5
The Vince WWF title win was actually a pretty well done story, Plus Stone Cold beat the crap out of HHH AFTER HHH battered Vince and put Vince on top FTW. And he Vacated it the next show. Russo did the exact same thing and gets a ton of hate for it though. His was pretty cool as well. Goldberg speared him through a cage but Russo technically escaped and won. Came out the next week on Nitro (Maybe even Thunder) and vacated the belt. You do realize that Debra, Shane, and Vince were all Russo booking, right? McMahon has final say and is enough of an expert to know a bad idea when he hears one. But I've seen you say elsewhere that the idea of there being a Vince filter was a myth. You can't take opposing views and use them to defend Russo depending on the situation. Overall I don't like most of these instances of putting the titles on non-wrestlers, but the Pacman Jones and David Arquette ones are by far the worst of the groups.
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Post by ZombieElvis on Jan 16, 2014 14:09:17 GMT -5
I don't mind the women's title reigns because the belt was a joke after Madusa threw it into the trash and wasn't treated with any respect again until late 2001 when Trish won it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 15:23:24 GMT -5
I'll keep it simple.
You see Crash holly being chased around an amusement park by the headbangers for the hardcore title was funny. Because it was for a joke title at the start of the show. It wasn't for the WWE title in the main event.
If it was, then WWE fans would have hated it.
WCW fans were not Sports Entertainment fans. If we were, we all would have been watching WWE. So trying to present SE angles and stories was never going to work.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Jan 16, 2014 15:34:08 GMT -5
Another reason why I think he still gets hate, is because he still refuses to see what he did wrong.
People watch wrestling as an escape. People know it's not real. People don't like being told on the show that what they are watching isn't real, the same way I don't want someone interupting one of my favorite movies saying that what is happening is scripted, or having someone break character. That's not a plausible storyline. When "shooting" becomes the norm, it becomes obvious that THIS is also scripted and isn't nearly as interesting as the other stories we can be getting.
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Post by molson5 on Jan 16, 2014 17:10:44 GMT -5
I think the hate he gets is deserved, but he's also incredibly underrated in that he was the primary creative force behind the launch of the attitude era. He was perfect for that time (though a train wreck in every context afterwards). If you're making a list of the most influential people in wrestling history, he has to be up there.
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SOR
Unicron
Posts: 2,611
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Post by SOR on Jan 16, 2014 20:18:47 GMT -5
Russo did the exact same thing and gets a ton of hate for it though. His was pretty cool as well. Goldberg speared him through a cage but Russo technically escaped and won. Came out the next week on Nitro (Maybe even Thunder) and vacated the belt. McMahon has final say and is enough of an expert to know a bad idea when he hears one. But I've seen you say elsewhere that the idea of there being a Vince filter was a myth. You can't take opposing views and use them to defend Russo depending on the situation. Overall I don't like most of these instances of putting the titles on non-wrestlers, but the Pacman Jones and David Arquette ones are by far the worst of the groups. You're correct to an extent. My view on it is that Vince McMahon himself probably didn't write things for the lower midcard angles and Russo probably had free reign there. I do think he's definitely reading the script though and would definitely put the kibosh on something he didn't agree with.
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Post by toodarkmark on Jan 16, 2014 22:09:58 GMT -5
I think he gets hate because he's the second worst booker of all time behind Herb Abrams of the 90's UWF. But he gave Herb a run for his money.
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ratetankmark
Samurai Cop
Equalist Lex Luthor
RIP Rik Mayall, you blimmen genius - Ria Vandervis on Rik Mayall
Posts: 2,426
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Post by ratetankmark on Jan 17, 2014 5:03:46 GMT -5
"I'm going to tell you something right now that you will absolutely not agree with, but I've been a wrestling fan my whole life and I will live and die by this. It's hard enough, believe me, I write this s***, it is hard enough to get somebody over. You will never ever, ever, ever, ever see the Japanese wrestlers or the Mexican wrestlers over in American mainstream wrestling. I’m an American. If I’m watching wrestling here in America, I don’t give a s*** about a Japanese guy. I don’t give a s*** about a Mexican guy. I’m from America, and that’s what I want to see." He gets hate because he's a hateful guy. Makes him easy to hate for other stupid things he does. That rant would've made Russo perfect as the manager of the Real Americans. Damn Russo is an idiot. at least Vince was entertaining in his runs.
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,073
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Post by TGM on Jan 17, 2014 9:44:53 GMT -5
You do realize that Debra, Shane, and Vince were all Russo booking, right? McMahon has final say and is enough of an expert to know a bad idea when he hears one.
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