|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 21, 2014 8:51:41 GMT -5
...It really doesn't seem like Undertaker was that great in the ring until relatively recently.
Now, I'm one of the advocates of wrestlers only doing what's necessary in the ring and nothing more - this is why I still consider Hogan to be as good in the ring as he is on the mic or charismatically. But Undertaker now has this rep as a guy who puts on great matches, especially at Mania.
Looking back though... for a guy with a career as long as his, he's really not had a huge amount of great, and definitely not many 'classic' matches.
It really seems like Taker was all about personality and storylines than he was good matches until, what, his heel turn in 2001?
I'm not saying there are NO good matches - the Cell matches, Austin at Summerslam although those two had appalling chemistry in the ring generally, Michaels at the '98 Rumble - but honestly? I really feel like until late 2001 or so Taker basically sucked in the ring, especially compared to some of his contemporaries at various points (Hogan, Michaels, Mick Foley, Bret Hart, Austin).
Am I alone in this thought?
|
|
Ryushinku
King Koopa
Posts: 12,188
Member is Online
|
Post by Ryushinku on Mar 21, 2014 9:00:42 GMT -5
No, and I've heard it a lot. Really, you can't disagree much either. His early years were all about the gimmick and that actively worked against a really good match. When that character was eased off in the mid-nineties, and given good opponents like HBK, Austin, Bret, Foley and others he was about to start being in properly good bouts.
Injuries slowed that, and the 2000-2001 BikerTaker was pretty much the worst version I'd argue as a fairly sloppy brawler, odd bright spot like the X-7 HHH match aside. But he gradually got his mojo back working heel and then got into the biggest thing that helped him - a huge MMA kick that saw him add and develop his moveset.
So, it's been a gradual thing. Boosted by his time off, otherwise he'd have already retired years ago.
|
|
|
Post by Nickybojelais on Mar 21, 2014 9:22:57 GMT -5
In the early days the character was simply not conducive to having stellar matches. The way he had to stalk the ring like a zombie and be portrayed as feeling no pain just didn't lend itself to having good fast paced matches.
Thankfully as the character has become more human in his movements and vulnerability it has allowed his matches to quicken and improve.
|
|
|
Post by Red Impact on Mar 21, 2014 9:29:42 GMT -5
You're not alone, he was a fairly average big guy at first, good at working that style, but not really great Then he got awful for a while. IIRC, it was in the latter half of the Biker Taker gimmick, when he turned, that he started to get better. Then, as was said, when he became more human he became better.
|
|
|
Post by steamboat1 on Mar 21, 2014 9:42:19 GMT -5
In professional wrestling, there are cars, there are drivers, and there are duds. Some guys can drag anybody to a good match, like a Shawn Michaels or Ric Flair. Then there are guys that you can put with a driver and they can put on a really good match.
It's no coincidence that the Undertakers good matches coming later in his career is because they started putting him with good wrestlers and not monsters. Driver guys like Michaels, Punk, HHH, Angle, Edge etc. and not guys like Mark Henry and Khali and Kane. Shoot in WCW he was pretty good against Sting and Luger, and was pretty good in the 90's when he got to wrestle Bret or Shawn or even Austin.
Best car in the wrestling business and is as good as who he is in the ring with.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 10:21:43 GMT -5
Once I got over the mystique of the gimmick, I've been very uninterested in everything he does.
I think it was around 2008-9 or so. The first time he made his "big return" I was like, "well, ok, that's cool I guess." but every time after has just brougth out more and more apathy in me towards him.
At this point he's basically my "piss break" of WWE. What's that? The Undertaker's match is coming up? Nap time.
|
|
Derk!
Hank Scorpio
Yeah, "looks like."
Posts: 5,087
|
Post by Derk! on Mar 21, 2014 11:38:02 GMT -5
In professional wrestling, there are cars, there are drivers, and there are duds. Some guys can drag anybody to a good match, like a Shawn Michaels or Ric Flair. Then there are guys that you can put with a driver and they can put on a really good match. It's no coincidence that the Undertakers good matches coming later in his career is because they started putting him with good wrestlers and not monsters. Driver guys like Michaels, Punk, HHH, Angle, Edge etc. and not guys like Mark Henry and Khali and Kane. Shoot in WCW he was pretty good against Sting and Luger, and was pretty good in the 90's when he got to wrestle Bret or Shawn or even Austin. Best car in the wrestling business and is as good as who he is in the ring with. This. Taker doesn't really click with big guys too much. Though, his matches with Batista were amazing especially the one at Wrestlemania.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Mar 21, 2014 11:42:00 GMT -5
Mankind changed things for the better
Instead of working with really tall or fat guys, Undertaker was able to work with someone smaller and more agile, and he also shifted his character from being a slow ponderous zombie to being more aggressive and faster.
|
|
|
Post by CM Parish on Mar 21, 2014 11:50:40 GMT -5
Once I got over the mystique of the gimmick, I've been very uninterested in everything he does. I think it was around 2008-9 or so. The first time he made his "big return" I was like, "well, ok, that's cool I guess." but every time after has just brougth out more and more apathy in me towards him. At this point he's basically my "piss break" of WWE. What's that? The Undertaker's match is coming up? Nap time. Worst post I have ever read. Undertaker matches as a piss break? What the f*** do you watch wrestling for?
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Mar 21, 2014 11:54:08 GMT -5
Cool your jets. he is allowed to have his own opinion. As incorrect as it might be
|
|
|
Post by Amazing Kitsune on Mar 21, 2014 11:56:43 GMT -5
Mankind changed things for the better Instead of working with really tall or fat guys, Undertaker was able to work with someone smaller and more agile, and he also shifted his character from being a slow ponderous zombie to being more aggressive and faster. People forget that there was a time when you could describe Mick Foley is comparatively small and agile.
|
|
chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,257
|
Post by chazraps on Mar 21, 2014 11:57:37 GMT -5
Mankind changed things for the better Instead of working with really tall or fat guys, Undertaker was able to work with someone smaller and more agile, and he also shifted his character from being a slow ponderous zombie to being more aggressive and faster. Yeah, I'd say Mankind and Goldust really helped the character grow. Goldust calling out the Undertaker and having him so well scouted, leading to the Undertaker changing his arsenal, as well as your aforementioned observation about Mankind, really turned the corner for the character.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 12:03:37 GMT -5
Once I got over the mystique of the gimmick, I've been very uninterested in everything he does. I think it was around 2008-9 or so. The first time he made his "big return" I was like, "well, ok, that's cool I guess." but every time after has just brougth out more and more apathy in me towards him. At this point he's basically my "piss break" of WWE. What's that? The Undertaker's match is coming up? Nap time. Worst post I have ever read. Undertaker matches as a piss break? What the f*** do you watch wrestling for? Enjoyment. Which I don't get from the classic Undertaker "punch punch punch. lay on the ground for 10 mins. punch punch punch. suicide dive. lay on the outside for 10 mins" type match. Plus his promos are hokey, his entrance is boring...I mean there is literally nothing about him at this point that is even remotely entertaining to me. He's the definition of all sizzle and no steak...unless you count that mug of his which looks like an overburnt piece of beef at this point. Ugh.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 12:16:31 GMT -5
Once I got over the mystique of the gimmick, I've been very uninterested in everything he does. I think it was around 2008-9 or so. The first time he made his "big return" I was like, "well, ok, that's cool I guess." but every time after has just brougth out more and more apathy in me towards him. At this point he's basically my "piss break" of WWE. What's that? The Undertaker's match is coming up? Nap time. Worst post I have ever read. Undertaker matches as a piss break? What the f*** do you watch wrestling for? Eh, as someone who absolutely loves Taker's Mania 25, 27, and 28 matches and sees the 26 and 29 ones as the only good things about those PPVs, I can see it. These days he is sold entirely on the Streak, and once it hit 20-0 there really was no point in continuing it outside of just to prop up buyrates. Plus the feuds themselves have largely been pretty bad - the Mania 27 one in particular was brutal to sit through, though that was less because of anything involving Taker and more the stupid decision to just have him and Triple H stare silently at each other every week and show constant clips of people talking about how incredible the match was going to be. At least the segment with Michaels was good I guess. Unrelated, but I've always found it weird how Taker and Triple H have one great match at Mania and two all-time classics, but every non-Mania match they've ever had is complete ass. The King of the Ring 2002 match in particular is just agonizing to sit through. Also, to be fair back during Taker's last couple of runs as a regular member of the roster in late 2009 and late 2010, he was awful.
|
|
SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
Jamaican WCF Crazy!
Half Man-Half Amazing
Posts: 27,214
|
Post by SAJ Forth on Mar 21, 2014 12:29:54 GMT -5
He was bound by the limitations of a character that required him not to sell. He showed this when he was allowed to move around more & sell.
|
|
kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
Posts: 15,870
|
Post by kidglov3s on Mar 21, 2014 12:30:56 GMT -5
One 'early' Undertaker match I really love is Bret vs Undertaker at Royal Rumble 1996. Mostly for Bret, who is working a very heelish style, but I love the way that match plays out, and I tend to think of matches as collaborative efforts, so I give equal credit to Undertaker. Worst post I have ever read. Undertaker matches as a piss break? What the f*** do you watch wrestling for? Enjoyment. Which I don't get from the classic Undertaker "punch punch punch. lay on the ground for 10 mins. punch punch punch. suicide dive. lay on the outside for 10 mins" type match. Plus his promos are hokey, his entrance is boring...I mean there is literally nothing about him at this point that is even remotely entertaining to me. He's the definition of all sizzle and no steak...unless you count that mug of his which looks like an overburnt piece of beef at this point. Ugh. I'm so with you.
|
|
|
Post by Big DSR Energy on Mar 21, 2014 13:23:35 GMT -5
Enjoyment. Which I don't get from the classic Undertaker "punch punch punch. lay on the ground for 10 mins. punch punch punch. suicide dive. lay on the outside for 10 mins" type match. Plus his promos are hokey, his entrance is boring...I mean there is literally nothing about him at this point that is even remotely entertaining to me. He's the definition of all sizzle and no steak...unless you count that mug of his which looks like an overburnt piece of beef at this point. Ugh. I'm so with you. As am I.
|
|
|
Post by Digital Witness on Mar 21, 2014 14:38:35 GMT -5
I don't agree with this assessment that Taker wasn't good till recently.
Early in his career, he was walking the ropes, and showing other extraordinary feats of agility at a time when other big men were mostly doing the same old crap. I'd go as far to say that he was only a step or two behind Vader and Bigelow in the late 80s in terms of big men being able to go in the ring.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2014 14:41:45 GMT -5
Yep. Agreed. And I'd place the point where he got good WELL after the heel turn. Like, we're talking post Mania 21. Up until then he was kind of eh and the good stuff (The Hardy ladder match, for example) is good more because of what's happening around him than him. It took him a long time to get really good even with his mystique.
|
|
|
Post by bestthateverdidit on Mar 21, 2014 14:48:02 GMT -5
Taker in the ring during 1999 was bad.
The 2002 KOTR I remember as a kid it being the first WWF PPV I'd watched up til that point that I actually got bored watching and fancied switching off. I still think that PPV and the one before it is the true end of the Attitude Era.
|
|