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Post by MGH on Jun 6, 2014 0:47:26 GMT -5
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Jun 6, 2014 0:48:22 GMT -5
To say Lebron isn't an elite player may be the most ludicrous statement in the history of the NBA. I mean historically elite. Historically elite means top 10 all time for me and Lebron is not that.
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Post by Some Guy on Jun 6, 2014 0:54:10 GMT -5
To say Lebron isn't an elite player may be the most ludicrous statement in the history of the NBA. I mean historically elite. Historically elite means top 10 all time for me and Lebron is not that. Yeah, he is. He has four MVPs, two Finals MVPs and has been the best player in the league for 5-6 years. That's top 10 good.
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Crimson
Hank Scorpio
Thank you DWade
Posts: 6,511
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Post by Crimson on Jun 6, 2014 1:04:01 GMT -5
Honestly, every year people keep finding a new way to move the goalpost when it comes to Lebron.
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Lancers
El Dandy
Oh you
Posts: 7,951
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Post by Lancers on Jun 6, 2014 1:06:05 GMT -5
Yeah, LeBron is easily top 10. Unquestionably, the best player of the modern era.
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Post by Seth Drakin of Monster Crap on Jun 6, 2014 1:40:21 GMT -5
I mean historically elite. Historically elite means top 10 all time for me and Lebron is not that. Yeah, he is. He has four MVPs, two Finals MVPs and has been the best player in the league for 5-6 years. That's top 10 good. Michael Jordan Larry Bird Magic Johnson Wilt Chamberlain Bill Russell Oscar Robertson Shaquille O'Neil Tim Duncan Kobe Bryant David Robinson all better players than Lebron....personally speaking
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ToyfareMark
Vegeta
A WINNER IS YOU!
In Hutch I trust!
Posts: 9,592
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Post by ToyfareMark on Jun 6, 2014 2:15:10 GMT -5
All the games should be played with no AC. Much more entertaining that way.
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Unocal 76
King Koopa
Providing The Finest Oil
Posts: 12,687
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Post by Unocal 76 on Jun 6, 2014 2:57:07 GMT -5
Oscar Robertson? With one less title, 1 MVP, and never won a title as THE MAN.
I think he might be the most overrated player in NBA history.
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Post by RadcapRadsley on Jun 6, 2014 4:15:42 GMT -5
David Robinson
all better players than Lebron....personally speaking [/quote]
No way Robinson is nowhere close to a top 10 player probably not even top 25 or 30 of all time
He was the Robin of the 99 Spurs team and in 03 the team that won his final year he was pretty much in a Haslem/Birdman type role. He did not make a single finals appearance his entire career where he was the best player on his team. Even Ewing and Dwight Howard have done that.
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Post by Some Guy on Jun 6, 2014 6:09:16 GMT -5
Yeah, he is. He has four MVPs, two Finals MVPs and has been the best player in the league for 5-6 years. That's top 10 good. Michael Jordan- Maybe Larry Bird- No Magic Johnson- Yes Wilt Chamberlain- Maybe Bill Russell- No Oscar Robertson- No Shaquille O'Neil- No Tim Duncan- No Kobe Bryant- Hell no David Robinson- No all better players than Lebron....personally speaking Magic, MJ and Wilt are the only guys I'd say are better right now on that list. LeBron is one of only four players (with Wilt, Kareem and MJ) with 4 MVPs, and only Kareem/MJ have multiple finals MVPs as well. He has been, unquestionably, the best player in the NBA over the last six years. The only reason anyone would ever put him below Kobe is a complete bias against him, and there is absolutely no argument for Kobe over him whatsoever.
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Post by Red Impact on Jun 6, 2014 8:32:11 GMT -5
How many of these players above him won a title with no help?
The correct answer is zero. Zero of them. Put any of them on Lebron's Cavs, and only a few would even make the conference finals.
This standard Lebron is held to is ridiculous. If he doesn't win it with no help and half a leg while hail rains down from above and satan spits fire at his nutsack (you're welcome for the image) then he's suddenly not a great player. The reality is that the dude is a beast, he's an amazing player. He didn't win on a bad team because no one can win without help, not Jordan, not Bird, not Magic, not Kobe, not Wilt. And the fact that no other players on that Cavs team have gone on to do anything of importance while those other players had teammates with great success is proof of how much worse he had it in Cleveland than these others guys did.
Wade isn't the man on the Heat, he wasn't even there for a lot of the season. The notion that Lebron resigned himself to being the number 2 guy on the team is ridiculous, he's the guy on the team, he's the leader in points, rebounds, assists, and steals, and third in blocks. He needed a guy who could be a reliable number two the same way Jordan desperately needed Pippen to win a title.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Jun 6, 2014 9:09:08 GMT -5
The only reason anyone would ever put him below Kobe is a complete bias against him, and there is absolutely no argument for Kobe over him whatsoever. The main arguments I've heard for Kobe are he scores more, and has more rings. To the scoring, I say that's because he shoots a f***load more than LeBron, look at the field goal percentage statistic. Kobe's best percentage, is worse than LeBron's career average. Hell only one season (his rookie year) is worse than Kobe's best. If LeBron wanted to score as many points as Kobe he could do it, no problem. If LeBron wanted 81 points, he'd get it. LeBron is someone who wants to get his teammates involved in the game. Kobe really doesn't. And the rings argument, well Kobe was the number 2 guy for 3 of his rings. That threepeat Lakers dynasty, it was Shaq's team. Every opposing team knew Shaq was the one they had to stop.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 16,894
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Post by BRV on Jun 6, 2014 10:03:42 GMT -5
How many of these players above him won a title with no help? The correct answer is zero. Zero of them. Put any of them on Lebron's Cavs, and only a few would even make the conference finals. This standard Lebron is held to is ridiculous. Well, when people make the claim that only Jordan, Magic and Wilt are historically better than him, essentially claiming that LeBron James is the fourth best player in NBA history, yeah, he deserves to be held to an impossibly high standard. If people want to peg him as one of a handful of the all-time greatest players ever, then he's going to be compared to them, and the bar is set high. You yourself said that no player ever could do what LeBron James did, and take those Cavaliers teams to the Conference or NBA Finals. So by that assertion alone, LeBron James is the greatest NBA player ever, because he alone took a borderline lottery team to the NBA Finals. So if we want to continue to perpetuate this idea that he is the greatest NBA player ever, then he needs to be held to a standard that reflects that. And in my opinion, winning two championships is not enough to just pull the needle off the record and say, "That's it guys, show's over. LeBron's the best ever. No more questions."
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comahan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,899
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Post by comahan on Jun 6, 2014 10:09:22 GMT -5
Mike, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, LeBron
Easy top 5 for me, as someone who has wasted away far, far too many hours on rankings that no one but me cares about.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,281
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Post by Push R Truth on Jun 6, 2014 10:44:53 GMT -5
I personally think that LeBron getting the piece of shit Cavs to the finals is more of an accomplishment than winning the finals/mvp/finals mvp.
In the last five minutes of the game last night a Spur could have punted the ball at the basket at it was going in. That was a crazy example of clutch shooting.
This is going all 7 games barring a game 6 meltdown by somebody.
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Post by Red Impact on Jun 6, 2014 11:39:57 GMT -5
How many of these players above him won a title with no help? The correct answer is zero. Zero of them. Put any of them on Lebron's Cavs, and only a few would even make the conference finals. This standard Lebron is held to is ridiculous. Well, when people make the claim that only Jordan, Magic and Wilt are historically better than him, essentially claiming that LeBron James is the fourth best player in NBA history, yeah, he deserves to be held to an impossibly high standard. If people want to peg him as one of a handful of the all-time greatest players ever, then he's going to be compared to them, and the bar is set high. "Only Jordan, Magic, and Wilt are better" should not mean "Lebron should be held to a higher standard than any of those guys" I wasn't arguing for him being the best player ever, I was arguing for him to be considered among the historical elite. Your argument makes no sense, you want to hold him to the same standard of those players, then feel free, hold him to the exact same standard. Magic won with Kareem, one of the greatest players ever to play the game, and by the time his third came around, he had 4 other future Hall of Famers on his team. Could you honestly tell me that Lebron has that? Even Wade is a borderline player, lower tier at best. Ok ,he had Shaq in Cleveland, but Cleveland Shaq was as far beneath Kareem as Kukoc was to Michael Jordan. Yes, he only has two NBA titles thus far. He's also only 29 years old. You know how old Michael Jordan was when he won his second? 29. And Jordan didn't win a damn thing until he had Pippen to score 20 and Grant to play defense, and you already admitted that the second three-peat Bulls was stacked. Wilt was even older, but you can't really compare their careers directly, since the game is so different now than it was in the 60's and 70's. Of the specific 3 mentioned, only Magic had that level of success at that young of an age, and oh yeah, he was dropped onto a team with Kareem. Did Lebron have a team in Cleveland? No, the best he had was Old Shaq, at the stage of his career where he was a better actor than athlete. If you hold Lebron to the same standard as those guys, it's not that bad a comparison. He needed help, just like everyone else who ever won in this league. But you're either deifying the players you're comparing him too, or demanding that he should have a higher standard to be in the exact same club. You yourself said that no player ever could do what LeBron James did, and take those Cavaliers teams to the Conference or NBA Finals. So by that assertion alone, LeBron James is the greatest NBA player ever, because he alone took a borderline lottery team to the NBA Finals. So if we want to continue to perpetuate this idea that he is the greatest NBA player ever, then he needs to be held to a standard that reflects that. And in my opinion, winning two championships is not enough to just pull the needle off the record and say, "That's it guys, show's over. LeBron's the best ever. No more questions." "only a few" =/= "no player ever" Come on, my post is right there, at least read it.
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,461
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Post by Rican on Jun 6, 2014 11:44:46 GMT -5
...................so the Spurs played last night, too. They played well overall but the turnovers were killing us. Gonna be a close series.
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Post by Some Guy on Jun 6, 2014 11:47:51 GMT -5
He said Horace Grant was a fringe starter when at his best was an incredibly efficient offensive weapon and good defender who averaged 15/11/3 guy with over a block and a steal a game. I mean, whatever makes LeBron look worse apparently.
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Post by Red Impact on Jun 6, 2014 11:58:09 GMT -5
...................so the Spurs played last night, too. They played well overall but the turnovers were killing us. Gonna be a close series. I don't know what got into them, if it was the heat or what, but they're almost never that sloppy. Sort of amazed I was looking at the same team that played in the Western Conference Finals.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 6, 2014 12:06:25 GMT -5
Well, yeah that game was sloppy. You have no AC in an arena in a hot state with 18,000 people creating even more heat and no ventilation. I'm surprised more players didn't pass out or cramp up.
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