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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jun 17, 2014 15:07:02 GMT -5
1) Big Show was a WCW guy. While it makes sense, you're not putting over him your top babyface.
2) McMahon was pretty much the top heel.
3) It was the late 90's, nothing made sense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 15:45:05 GMT -5
meh, he was stale from day one Yeah, a 7 foot plus athletic big man who can do dropkicks and actually talk on the stick somewhat is everyday stuff. He once did a moonsault |
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jun 17, 2014 15:49:01 GMT -5
They made Big Show look like a complete moron in his actual debut. The very first thing he does in WWE is f*** his first assignment by letting Austin win the cage match at St. Vaelntine's Day Massacre.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Jun 17, 2014 15:52:44 GMT -5
I also think that because of the locker room rallying cry (Us vs Them, They're trying to put us out of business), there was a thought that anybody brought over couldn't be made to look to good right away because it would 1. Make the locker room upset 2. Make WCW look better. I can't think of a single person(I'm sure I'm wrong), that was a WCW guy that wasn't depushed pretty soon after their debut. Pretty much exactly this. I don't think this is even down to Austin, I think this was a WWF call. Look at how the WCW guys, many of them hot talents - in Benoit's case the world f***ing champion - lost in their DEBUT MATCHES. They may have got great runs down the line, but at that point in time, the WWF was still afraid of WCW. And even f***ing stupider, even once they beat WCW and OWNED THEM they STILL felt the need to bury all their guys in the InVasion. But having said that- however: The case of a wrestler who jumps from the competition has been proven to be a no-win situation: Whatever you do is going to be a negative: If you make a star pay dues and depush them in your promotion, like WWF did to WCW guys? Suddenly the new guy means nothing and you're running scared of WCW, making everyone upset. If you take this huge new signing and have them run roughshod on your promotion? You're like what WCW did to WWF guys- and suddenly, your own guys look like jokes who aren't as good as these new REAL stars you just got. The WWF look like superstars, your promotion looks like chumps. And if you have the new star trade wins with a homegrown guy? Look at Kurt Angle/Samoa Joe in TNA- all you do is make the one who loses first mean nothing immediately, then make the one who loses second mean nothing (if they lost to a chump who's worthless now, how good must THIS GUY be?). All things considered, WWF probably did the right thing- put the star back in, then build him up on your show to make him a star on your terms. |
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jun 17, 2014 15:57:57 GMT -5
I also think that because of the locker room rallying cry (Us vs Them, They're trying to put us out of business), there was a thought that anybody brought over couldn't be made to look to good right away because it would 1. Make the locker room upset 2. Make WCW look better. I can't think of a single person(I'm sure I'm wrong), that was a WCW guy that wasn't depushed pretty soon after their debut. Pretty much exactly this. I don't think this is even down to Austin, I think this was a WWF call. Look at how the WCW guys, many of them hot talents - in Benoit's case the world f***ing champion - lost in their DEBUT MATCHES. They may have got great runs down the line, but at that point in time, the WWF was still afraid of WCW. And even f***ing stupider, even once they beat WCW and OWNED THEM they STILL felt the need to bury all their guys in the InVasion. Part of the problem was that it wasn't just McMahon who felt that way. If you were, say, Holly or something, and you're feeling comfortable in your spot, and then they tell you that they're taking the ball from you and giving it to the new guy, it's probably going to piss you off. It's the difference between introducing a new pet right, or just plopping a cat in your living room and expecting your dog to be okay with it. You're going to get a problem. Besides that, by their own admission, Show and Jericho came in with a bit of a chip on their shoulders and needed to adapt in more than just ring work. The political atmosphere was tremendously different, and Big Show came in very arrogant. He was young, huge, and due in part due to a friendship with Hogan, very protected in WCW, so he came in unable to cash some of the checks that his mouth would write. This is a problem that'd remain for years, and part of why he was tagged with Undertaker, to try to teach him discipline with someone who basically wrote the book on how to maintain morale in the locker room. His later weight problems, getting put back in OVW, etc, tell the tale of why he wasn't bigger than he was. Take a 7'0, 400+ pound guy in his early 20s and give him a world title pretty much on debut on a national stage, and see what kind of an egomaniac you'll create. |
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Post by Super Nintenjoe KBD on Jun 17, 2014 16:36:15 GMT -5
meh, he was stale from day one I'm certainly not a fan of the modern-day Big Show, but this claim is nonsense. Big Show questionably jobbing in 1999 is a symptom of how he was booked: as a heel as a member of the Corporation, then as a face against the Corporation, then as a heel as a member of the Unholy Alliance, then as a face against the Big Boss Man (and the Rock and Triple H), then as a heel working with Shane McMahon. That was in his FIRST YEAR with the WWF. You could even add another one in there, he turned heel to feud with the Rock involving the Royal Rumble finish and then another mini face turn when he was doing the impersonator gimmick (The Showster, Showkisihi, Shownan the Barbarian) and I think feueded with Kurt Angle before again turning heel to face Shane and all that. At this stage my main watching was from Livewire on saturday mornings so my memory isnt too clear if he was definite face in that post WM2000 period but he must have at least been tweener Im guessing, I was loving it anyway. I think he'd come out with music for whatever gimmick he was impersonating and then snap during the match and win and leave with his aweomse (imo) WWF Agression rap version like a bad ass. This was actually probably the most Ive ever been into Show. I remember Angle wanted to go for the tag titles with him and a segment where Angle was pissed at Show's antics and Show was in some sort of Scottish gear and said "It's only a bit of fun, laddie!" before getting pissed and turning on Angle. Now that I think of it I think I mainly remember that from the video package of their match at Backlash 2000. (Just looked up that PPV and Big Show beat Angle in 2.35....) |
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Chip
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Post by Chip on Jun 17, 2014 16:55:39 GMT -5
I always heard that Show was fed to Austin early because they were shocked at just how sloppy he was. They scaled him back into a reduced role so they could teach him how to wrestle without the pressure of a main event spot.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jun 17, 2014 17:00:00 GMT -5
1) Big Show was a WCW guy. While it makes sense, you're not putting over him your top babyface. 2) McMahon was pretty much the top heel. 3) It was the late 90's, nothing made sense. 1)I never said he should; I just think it's weird that they would have Show take a loss right outta the gate. 2)That has no relevance to my point. 3)Eh, doesn't excuse it from being dumb/a waste of character. |
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mizerable
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Post by mizerable on Jun 17, 2014 17:15:28 GMT -5
1) Big Show was a WCW guy. While it makes sense, you're not putting over him your top babyface. 2) McMahon was pretty much the top heel. 3) It was the late 90's, nothing made sense. 1)I never said he should; I just think it's weird that they would have Show take a loss right outta the gate. 2)That has no relevance to my point. 3)Eh, doesn't excuse it from being dumb/a waste of character. I agree. In terms of #1. You should always book outsider guys as threats. That's why the nWo was so intriguing. Having Big Show lose right out of the gate meant that the fans weren't going to buy him being a threat later. He doesn't need to be this unbeatable badass, but at the same time don't throw him to the wolves until you're ready for it. |
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 17, 2014 17:37:55 GMT -5
deleting what I posted here, as Magiconz already nailed the exact same sentiment.
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Post by Chairman of the Board on Jun 17, 2014 17:55:20 GMT -5
1) Big Show was a WCW guy. While it makes sense, you're not putting over him your top babyface. 2) McMahon was pretty much the top heel. 3) It was the late 90's, nothing made sense. 1)I never said he should; I just think it's weird that they would have Show take a loss right outta the gate. 2)That has no relevance to my point. 3)Eh, doesn't excuse it from being dumb/a waste of character. Didn't you started a thread saying Vince didn't know how to book a giant and pontificating about the time period? I agree he could have been used much much better. Austin wasn't laying down for a WCW guy. You have to remember how bitter the WCW/WWF rivalry was at the time. McMahon viewed himself as the top antagonist. McMahon being top heel heel is relevant. Big Show losing wasn't the end of the Austin/Mcmahon feud unless I'm mistaken. Big Show was used to put Austin over a WCW mainstay and provide an instant pop to rating/buyrates. We can agree to disagree but the fact he was WCW, Vince was top heel, and it's was the middle of the WCW/WWF war are all reasons as to why it was booked that way. What type of answer or discussion are you looking for? |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 18, 2014 11:07:53 GMT -5
Part of the problem was that it wasn't just McMahon who felt that way. If you were, say, Holly or something, and you're feeling comfortable in your spot, and then they tell you that they're taking the ball from you and giving it to the new guy, it's probably going to piss you off. It's the difference between introducing a new pet right, or just plopping a cat in your living room and expecting your dog to be okay with it. You're going to get a problem. Besides that, by their own admission, Show and Jericho came in with a bit of a chip on their shoulders and needed to adapt in more than just ring work. The political atmosphere was tremendously different, and Big Show came in very arrogant. He was young, huge, and due in part due to a friendship with Hogan, very protected in WCW, so he came in unable to cash some of the checks that his mouth would write. This is a problem that'd remain for years, and part of why he was tagged with Undertaker, to try to teach him discipline with someone who basically wrote the book on how to maintain morale in the locker room. His later weight problems, getting put back in OVW, etc, tell the tale of why he wasn't bigger than he was. Take a 7'0, 400+ pound guy in his early 20s and give him a world title pretty much on debut on a national stage, and see what kind of an egomaniac you'll create. I totally understand wanting to keep your talent, but for me that was just an example of both Vince and the talent being dumb. If you get the WCW guys in to wrestle with you and it does good business, EVERYONE in the company does better business. This is especially true of the InVasion, which WCW was quite clearly never going to win but the WWF guys were all refusing to lose to anyone in a goddamned fake sport, and started stiffing people in the ring instead. But having said that- however: The case of a wrestler who jumps from the competition has been proven to be a no-win situation: Whatever you do is going to be a negative: If you make a star pay dues and depush them in your promotion, like WWF did to WCW guys? Suddenly the new guy means nothing and you're running scared of WCW, making everyone upset. If you take this huge new signing and have them run roughshod on your promotion? You're like what WCW did to WWF guys- and suddenly, your own guys look like jokes who aren't as good as these new REAL stars you just got. The WWF look like superstars, your promotion looks like chumps. And if you have the new star trade wins with a homegrown guy? Look at Kurt Angle/Samoa Joe in TNA- all you do is make the one who loses first mean nothing immediately, then make the one who loses second mean nothing (if they lost to a chump who's worthless now, how good must THIS GUY be?). All things considered, WWF probably did the right thing- put the star back in, then build him up on your show to make him a star on your terms. Except that the nWo angle would've been great had WCW managed to turn the tide. You have a guy come in and establish himself with some wins because of the shock of the new and then you have been gradually start to have his number. |
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Jun 18, 2014 15:17:30 GMT -5
But having said that- however: The case of a wrestler who jumps from the competition has been proven to be a no-win situation: Whatever you do is going to be a negative: If you make a star pay dues and depush them in your promotion, like WWF did to WCW guys? Suddenly the new guy means nothing and you're running scared of WCW, making everyone upset. If you take this huge new signing and have them run roughshod on your promotion? You're like what WCW did to WWF guys- and suddenly, your own guys look like jokes who aren't as good as these new REAL stars you just got. The WWF look like superstars, your promotion looks like chumps. And if you have the new star trade wins with a homegrown guy? Look at Kurt Angle/Samoa Joe in TNA- all you do is make the one who loses first mean nothing immediately, then make the one who loses second mean nothing (if they lost to a chump who's worthless now, how good must THIS GUY be?). All things considered, WWF probably did the right thing- put the star back in, then build him up on your show to make him a star on your terms. Except that the nWo angle would've been great had WCW managed to turn the tide. You have a guy come in and establish himself with some wins because of the shock of the new and then you have been gradually start to have his number. If I meant things like the nWo angle completely, that's one thing- at least there a reason happened. But even then- compare the 1994, post-Hogan and all his cronies coming in angle, and you see the same problem: WCW was on the verge of making it on their own. They get a number of old WCW guys, getting pushed as real stars, and the WCW homegrowns were jokes- then eventually made worthless and sent away. (Incidentally, most of them got repackaged under new gimmicks in WWF, and became the core of the Attitude Era. Funny how that happened.) |
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