Let's talk about Mary Sues...

[Hurbster]

Jun 22, 2014 20:39:23 GMT -5 angryfan said:

I've got a character that actually became a Mary Sue over a series of novels, but who might be a bit obscure now (despite being in like 18 books). Laura Hamelton's Anita Blake. Started off as a necromancer who killed supernatural beings on the side. Became a pan-morphic almost vampire human who had all the powers of everyone else only better and who everyone wante4d to f***. Oh, and that last part, that's both figurative and literal, since one of her powers was, to quote Pam Poovey, being a chupcabra but for dicks.

You beat me to it. I gave up after Obsidian Butterfly but I hear she gets even worse. That series is honestly OK up to Blue Moon but I would not recommend going any further. How the hell she is still a Marshall I have no idea as she put monsters over humans pretty much constantly. Such a difference over how the books started out.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Ginny Weasley

Author insert
Never has any negative consequences for any actions (hexes Malfoy gets invited into an exclusive club, stupidly gives secrets to Tom Riddle's diary...everybody immediately forgets about it)
Great at everything she does including great in two quidditch positions.
Always described as beautiful. So beautiful that even characters who have high standards like her.
Has all these skills and abilities yet we never see her having to work or practice them beyond a few mentions of her work in the DA.
Forced funny. Rowling writes about other characters laughing at Ginny's "jokes" which is something she doesn't really do with any other character. Kinda like she's telling rather than showing us that Ginny is a funny character. Made even worse by the fact her jokes suck.


I can't stand Ginny. She's the one piece of crap in the HP books

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

Kitty Pryde, specifically her comic book incarnation. everyone talks about how pretty she is (when she's actually pretty average looking), she's an expert in computer hacking, a ninja, a ballerina, best pals with Wolverine and always has something clever to say, even when it's really not warranted. gets lusted after by pretty much every male x-men character. she frequently tells other characters off and acts like a spoiled brat but never gets called on it. lacks any discernable flaw. always presented as being prominent in spite of never having anything to do, really, and the things she does do could've been done by someone else with an actual personality beyond "nerdy highschooler's spank fodder".

seriously, I hate her with a passion. I wish she would've stayed on that giant space bullet forever. she's the only down-point of Joss Wheddon's otherwise fantastic run on X-men. I can re-read the panel of Deadpool decking her in the face all day and never get tired. the fact that he was actually calling her out for being the smug little shit that she is just made it better.

[Capt Lunatic]

Jun 22, 2014 19:55:43 GMT -5 Cela said:

Jun 22, 2014 18:24:27 GMT -5 Capt Lunatic said:

Can I say Brienne of Tarth?

1-Loras Tyrell is one of the best tournament knights in the land...she beats him in a tournament
2-Jamie Lannister is the best swordsman and biggest asshole in the land...she beats him in a swordfight and he turns over a new leaf from being around her.
3-The Hound is the toughest SOB in the land...she beats him in a deathmatch.
4-Every person she has sworn to protect gets killed...people still seek out her service.

Still one of my favorite GOT characters.

Nah, she's overly trusting and way too into chivalry. She's basically a Sansa that can fight.

Jun 22, 2014 21:05:20 GMT -5 Citizen Snips said:

Jun 22, 2014 18:24:27 GMT -5 Capt Lunatic said:

Good points.

[H-Virus]

I read a questionnaire once a long time ago, I think it might have been on Deviantart, that went something like this:

1. Is this character one or more of the following: (1 check for each 'Yes' answer)
a. Incredibly rich
b. incredibly smart
c. incredibly attractive
d. incredibly talented in more than one field of study?

2. Is this character capable of defeating enemies that other characters would either lose to, or at least struggle greatly against?

3. Can this character shun authority with little to no repercussion?

4. Does this character have several members of the opposite sex tripping over themselves to be with them?

5. If there is a problem, does this character usually have the answer?

6. If there is an argument, is this character usually perceived as being right?

7. Does this character have the admiration and respect of all of their peers? Additionally, do the other characters sometimes point out all the reasons for why this character is so amazing?

8. Does this character have a tragic backstory that doesn't actually hinder them from getting their job done, but still gives the added bonus of making them dark, broody or mysterious?

(I can't remember the rest, but there were about 15 questions in all.)


If you answered yes to at least half of these questions, this character is probably a Mary Sue. If you answered yes to ALL of these questions, this character is probably Batman.

Now, the whole point of this list was so the creator of it could prove that Batman was the biggest Mary Sue in all of fiction or whatever, but despite my personal dislike of Batman and my belief that if he ever stopped being popular DC would go out of business, I still don't agree with that. It is true that Batman is the sacred cow of the DCverse and is often treated as such by a lot of his writers (and fans), and even if all the things from that list about him are true, that doesn't automatically make him a bad character, and no one can argue his popularity.

And that, I think, is the key. Batman may seem too good to be true by most standards, but he's still an interesting and likable character with a strong storyline built around him that people can get behind, which is something you can't really say about someone like Bella Swan, who has the personality of a rotted tree stump, or Wesley Crusher, whose main purpose for existing seemed to be 'Hey, look how much better I am than everyone else on this ship!'

[BorneAgain]

Well with Batman, it all depends on the continuity anyway. He's a major genius badass in the DCAU, able to stand toe to toe with the other members of the Justice League, and is recognized for his ability by all. Yet all the prep time in the world didn't save him from becoming a bitter old man all alone with only Ace and eventually Terry as company, having become so cold that he drove away everyone else he was close to.

[Deleted]

Liara from the Mass Effect series, Lair of the Shadow Broker and afterward. In the first game she was fine but afterwards? She's less of a Mary Sue like Bella Swan, more of a God-Mode Sue.

-Has nearly eternal youth and beauty
-Being a Pureblood is bad but she doesn't really care
-Godlike biotic powers
-Is the Shadow Broker and can balance this AND being with Shepard
-Can read minds
-Good with fighting
-Highly intelligent and learned (to where she knows how to do almost everything)
-Streetwise and sneaky
-Cannot die in the games, whereas everyone else, even Shepard, can
-Player is constantly steered into pursuing her romantically and has to work actively to avoid romance if it is not desired


Like, Miranda was engineered to be the perfect woman but even she has some weaknesses.

[SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman]

Alice form the live-action Resident Evil movies. It wasn't too bad at first but at this point it seems everything is meticulously crafted to make damn sure we understand she's the best ever and the most important and the most badass and everyone just drops like flies when she's not around, to the point that everyone else is made completely useless and is just someone for Alice to either save or fight. There's a scene in which she teaches Michelle Rodriguez's character how to fire a gun, for crying out loud!!

And in fact, we have all the usual traits of a Mary Sue, like her being an original character who takes the focus of the story away from the actual main characters and is so much better than them and constantly has to save them or else they die, she has every power imaginable (and convenient to the "plot") even when she supposedly doesn't and both good guys and villains can't stop going on about how great and special she is.




Similarly, River Song from Doctor Who sounds like a character straight out of a bad fan fiction who somehow found her way into official canon (presumably because she's so awesome, you guys!). Previously unmentioned character who comes out of nowhere but is said to be close to and respected by the hero? Check. Becomes the centre of attention in every episode she's in? Check. Is treated like more important and skilled than even the hero when she's on screen? Check. Everyone comments about how awesome and gorgeous she is? Check. Normally intelligent and resourceful characters become bumbling idiots when she's around so she can show them up? Super-check.

And like a true Mary Sue, although the show keeps telling us she's a super badass and super sexy, we are shown no real evidence of that. She's not ugly at all, of course, but she's not exceptionally attractive either, especially when compared to some of the other female characters in Doctor Who history, both classic and new. She doesn't even do anything that remarkable, the show just acts like it is.

For example, in one episode, she kills a Dalek by shooting it... although it is unarmed, unable to move and begging for its life (what's that? Begging goes against everything Daleks stand for? Well, obviously River Song is just that awesome. Admire her). And the show treats it like it's super awesome as if The Doctor doesn't constantly fight armies of them. Also, I don't care who is in front of you, executing an unarmed, injured, defenceless, surrendering enemy is not badass, it's a war crime. Also also, Ace destroyed a fully-functioning one with a baseball bat; killing one with a gun when they can't fight back doesn't even register a blip on the most awesome ways people have dispatched Daleks.

Another time, dramatic music is played and there is a slow zoom on her face while she's taunting a Nazi soldier by talking about how she is on her way to a gay Gypsy bar mizvah and she's going to kill Hitler, because it's obviously so brave and awesome of her. Well whoop-dee-freaking do! Rory here just told Adolf Hitler himself to shut up and then stuffed him in a cupboard, but do go on about how tough you are for telling off a random officer.

Oh and of course, because it's one of those Nazi stories where German soldiers are all ridiculous and 100% behind the Nazi cause, the officer takes her taunt straight to heart and shoots her over it. But wait! River Song wanted that to happen because shooting her right after her regeneration... makes her cause an explosion around her and knock out or kill the Nazis around, obviously.
Yup, that's how regenerations work now. After all, it's not like until now, even in New Who, the moments right after regeneration were shown to be moments of extreme weakness for Time Lords or anything... or that Time Lords CAN be killed before exhausting their set of regenerations if they are killed instantly, like by being shot... and it's not like the storyline that lead to this point started with River Song herself killing the Doctor by shooting him mid-regeneration! GGAAAAAAAAHHH!!!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING STEVEN MOFFAT?!!

THAT is how bad of a Mary Sue River Song is: she is such an overpowered writer's pet that it actively ruins the plot and drills holes in it. And then there's all the little details that just rub salt in the wounds, like when she's said to pilot the TARDIS better than the Doctor himself (you left the brakes on!). N-no, just no, that doesn't happen. The Doctor has flown that thing for centuries and it has been stated multiple times that he has a special connection to it and can even, to some extent, communicate with it. But that all goes flying out the window for the sake of a joke that once again shows how better and smarter than everyone else including The Doctor River Song is.

Her only purpose is to upstage and be found awesome by everyone. If that's not a Mary Sue, I don't know what is.

[ThereIsNoAbsurdistOnlyZuul]

Jun 22, 2014 21:36:06 GMT -5 Hurbster said:

Jun 22, 2014 20:39:23 GMT -5 angryfan said:

I've got a character that actually became a Mary Sue over a series of novels, but who might be a bit obscure now (despite being in like 18 books). Laura Hamelton's Anita Blake. Started off as a necromancer who killed supernatural beings on the side. Became a pan-morphic almost vampire human who had all the powers of everyone else only better and who everyone wante4d to f***. Oh, and that last part, that's both figurative and literal, since one of her powers was, to quote Pam Poovey, being a chupcabra but for dicks.

You beat me to it. I gave up after Obsidian Butterfly but I hear she gets even worse. That series is honestly OK up to Blue Moon but I would not recommend going any further. How the hell she is still a Marshall I have no idea as she put monsters over humans pretty much constantly. Such a difference over how the books started out.

Eh, once you look at the relationship between Anita and Hamilton's real life, it gets somewhat understood. Basically she goes through a divorce and a bit of a personal sexually revolution in real life, and it shows up there. Main character is uninteresting, the only one who I genuinely like are a couple of side characters.

I wouldn't mind, but it is poorly written smut, with no consequences to characters action (like to the point of should have been a hammer of god come down by the mortal world), and there are books that are bogged by the sex to where there is no plot movement.

[Dat Dude]

Kitty Pryde. God she is an unbearable read. The only writer who wrote the character in an appealing way was Peter David.

[ritt works hard fo da chickens]

1. Is this character one or more of the following: (1 check for each 'Yes' answer)
a. Incredibly rich
b. incredibly smart
c. incredibly attractive
d. incredibly talented in more than one field of study?

2. Is this character capable of defeating enemies that other characters would either lose to, or at least struggle greatly against?

3. Can this character shun authority with little to no repercussion?

4. Does this character have several members of the opposite sex tripping over themselves to be with them?

5. If there is a problem, does this character usually have the answer?

6. If there is an argument, is this character usually perceived as being right?

7. Does this character have the admiration and respect of all of their peers? Additionally, do the other characters sometimes point out all the reasons for why this character is so amazing?

8. Does this character have a tragic backstory that doesn't actually hinder them from getting their job done, but still gives the added bonus of making them dark, broody or mysterious?

(I can't remember the rest, but there were about 15 questions in all.)

As far as GoT i hear Sam a lot or Dany but I always think Tyrion.
1A)Rich? Check
B)Smart? The smartest person in any room he's ever been in.
C)Incredibly Attractive? Well he is described as hideous in the books but still he has had multiple women fawn over a disfigured, maimed dwarf.
D)Talented in more than one field of study? He masters anything he puts his mind too
2)He outsmarted Pycelle, Baelish, and Varys when he first became the hand. He escaped a death sentence in the sky cells, he managed to diplomacy his way through the hill tribes and organize them into an army to fight for him. He turned back Stannis' superior fleet, he survived an assassination attempt by a Kingsguard one of the most elite knight orders in the land, he got the last laugh on his father.
3) He slaps Joffrey. He overrides Cersei at every turn as the hand. He defies his own father whenever he can.
4) Not several per se but more than a terribly disfigured dwarf with a terrible reputation should, in the book it is worse.
5) Everytime
6) Yep even relatively good characters become bad to oppose him not to mention the mean character become downright cruel to him.
7) Not totally but the people who look down on him are proven foolish and stupid and it is many times one of their most fatal flaws. How did Joffrey get easily poisoned? Everyone was watching him torment Tyrion and didn't notice the poison drop. Shae betrayed him, (you know the whore who's life was in danger moved up to the most powerful man in the land, how unforeseen) his father, Lyssa Arryn and Cait Stark didn't respect his powers of persuasion, etc.Cersei's hatred of him causes her to do many self destructive things.
8) the most tragic backstory in a book full of them, he killed his own mother being born, his family hate him, his one true love was taken from him, he's born twisted, deformed, stunted, with mismatched eyes.

In GoT everyone gets a one up on someone else only to be undercut by the next person. Except Tyrion. Everybody wants Tyrion dead but is instantly wowed by his awesomeness and either people fall before him or crawl to ally with him and once they ally with him they get some rubbed off awesomeness. Bronn a sellsword is won over by him and risks his own life to champion for him against a knight and former head of the city guard of King's Landing whom he defeats fairly easily. Oberyn Martel who HATES all Lannisters voices respect for him and thinks championing for him makes more sense then just killing his enemies how he originally planned. Podrick an incompetent at best squire risks his own life and becomes able to slay a kingsguard to save Tyrion. Jaime who's done everything for his father that didn't conflict with his lover/sister, betrays both of them to save Tyrion, and in the book Jamie confesses he was part of a lie by their father to destroy Tyrion's marriage, in response Tyrion tell's Jaime Cersei is a whore and he killed Jaime's son to no repercussions. Jaime threw a child from a window for Cersei.

SPOILERS FOR BOOK READERS UP TO DATE>>>>

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Jon Connington who has no love for Lannisters gets Greyscale and risks his entire life's purpose of saving young Aerys to save Tyrion.

Penny blames him for her brother's death but after failing an attack on him becomes infatuated with him.

Varys has been secretly undercutting all Lannisters even ones he confesses are good people like Kevan, but saves Tyrion because his decades long intricate plan is best executed with the help of a whoremongering drunken dwarf of the same family you are actively betraying.

I'd also say the story doesn't revolve around Tyrion but the characters that are the "main" characters revolve around Tyrion. I feel he is one of a trio of author inserts (along with Sam and Araya) and the most Mary Sue-ish.

[MrBRulzOK]

Jun 23, 2014 0:01:22 GMT -5 @mightykretzler said:

Liara from the Mass Effect series, Lair of the Shadow Broker and afterward. In the first game she was fine but afterwards? She's less of a Mary Sue like Bella Swan, more of a God-Mode Sue.

-Has nearly eternal youth and beauty
-Being a Pureblood is bad but she doesn't really care
-Godlike biotic powers
-Is the Shadow Broker and can balance this AND being with Shepard
-Can read minds
-Good with fighting
-Highly intelligent and learned (to where she knows how to do almost everything)
-Streetwise and sneaky
-Cannot die in the games, whereas everyone else, even Shepard, can
-Player is constantly steered into pursuing her romantically and has to work actively to avoid romance if it is not desired


Like, Miranda was engineered to be the perfect woman but even she has some weaknesses.

Well now I'm glad my Shepard dumped that bitch for Tali in the sequel.

[Piccolo]

I'm watching this thread with interest to see how many talented, goodlooking, powerful males are considered to be Sues compared to talented, goodlooking, powerful women. I've seen so many cries of "Sue!" over the years that have nothing to do with author self-inserts, but seem to boil down to someone being mad that a woman was the best at something... I'm curious to see if that trend is dying out or still going strong.

[Crimson]

Jun 23, 2014 5:47:25 GMT -5 Piccolo said:

I'm watching this thread with interest to see how many talented, goodlooking, powerful males are considered to be Sues compared to talented, goodlooking, powerful women. I've seen so many cries of "Sue!" over the years that have nothing to do with author self-inserts, but seem to boil down to someone being mad that a woman was the best at something... I'm curious to see if that trend is dying out or still going strong.

There was the aforementioned Wesley Crusher. There's also Randy from That's 70's Show, who was Eric's replacement. Just as sarcastic as Eric and good-looking as Kelso without Eric's social awkwardness or Kelso's idocy. Within a couple of episodes of being introduced, he's the new leader of the gang, Red pretty much has a guy-crush on him, and he's banging Eric's old girlfriend.

The reason why it's more noticeable with female characters though is that writers tend to go out of their way to try and make female characters "special" to justify why they are going to be the primary love interest (Liara, Ginny Weasley).

Jun 22, 2014 21:05:20 GMT -5 Citizen Snips said:

Haven't seen the finale but The Hound was also not anywhere close to his peak form when he ran across her.

It took bashing his head in with a rock for Brienne to actually win. Up until that, she was losing.

[Crimson]

Jun 22, 2014 21:56:39 GMT -5 Ryback on a Pole! said:

Ginny Weasley

Author insert
Never has any negative consequences for any actions (hexes Malfoy gets invited into an exclusive club, stupidly gives secrets to Tom Riddle's diary...everybody immediately forgets about it)
Great at everything she does including great in two quidditch positions.
Always described as beautiful. So beautiful that even characters who have high standards like her.
Has all these skills and abilities yet we never see her having to work or practice them beyond a few mentions of her work in the DA.
Forced funny. Rowling writes about other characters laughing at Ginny's "jokes" which is something she doesn't really do with any other character. Kinda like she's telling rather than showing us that Ginny is a funny character. Made even worse by the fact her jokes suck.


I can't stand Ginny. She's the one piece of crap in the HP books

I agree with a lot of this, but I don't hate Ginny, Rowling just did the entire thing poorly. I always get the feeling that Rowling actually did plan out this romance between the two but she waited too long and had to shoe-horn it in in the last minute. So we ended up getting 5-books worth of character development catch-up and suddenly Ginny is now the most amazing person ever.

It'd be exactly like if Luke was suddenly given a new love interest in Return of the Jedi.

[SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman]

Jun 23, 2014 5:47:25 GMT -5 Piccolo said:

I'm watching this thread with interest to see how many talented, goodlooking, powerful males are considered to be Sues compared to talented, goodlooking, powerful women. I've seen so many cries of "Sue!" over the years that have nothing to do with author self-inserts, but seem to boil down to someone being mad that a woman was the best at something... I'm curious to see if that trend is dying out or still going strong.

Well to be fair, Mary Sues often stem from male writers forcing their fantasized perfect girlfriend into a story and forcing everyone to admit they're the best, the smartest and the sexiest (with some taking this to its extreme conclusion, like Paul W. S. Anderson turning his wife into a superhuman one-woman-army, or Rob Zombie conveniently making the character played by his wife the only likeable character in his version of Halloween). It doesn't help that few writers seem to be able to write a female character who isn't either a damsel in distress for the male hero to save and seduce or, well, a Mary Sue who can't have any flaw because having even one would obviously mean they're submissive.

But yeah, there are definitely many male Mary Sues (or Marty/Gary Stus as they re often called). Edward Whatshisname from Twilight seems like the obvious example. Superman definitely used to be one and still occasionally comes across as one depending on how he's written.

Also, surely I can't be the only one who thinks Bruce Lee's characters tend to be this. Most of the time not spent with him easily beating up entire gangs by himself is spent with good guys gushing about how awesome he is and bad guys raging that this Bruce Lee is just too damn badass for their henchmen.

Oh! And how could I forget every Adam Sandler character. I mean shit, at least Bruce Lee actually was badass in real life, but Sandler ALWAYS plays characters who are inexplicably successful with women despite looking average if not below average, are always somehow filthy rich, never get called out on their dickhead behaviour (and boy are they dickheads) and in fact are often loved for it, always end up saving their friends, are always right, etc...

[Confused Mark Wahlberg]

Pretty much Steven Seagal characters. Seriously. He single-handedly beats the shit out of everyone (despite looking too fat to move) and there are movies where he barely even gets hit! At least other martial artists get hit.

[A Platypus Rave is Correct]

Jun 23, 2014 3:07:47 GMT -5 MrBRulzOK said:

Jun 23, 2014 0:01:22 GMT -5 @mightykretzler said:

Liara from the Mass Effect series, Lair of the Shadow Broker and afterward. In the first game she was fine but afterwards? She's less of a Mary Sue like Bella Swan, more of a God-Mode Sue.

-Has nearly eternal youth and beauty
-Being a Pureblood is bad but she doesn't really care
-Godlike biotic powers
-Is the Shadow Broker and can balance this AND being with Shepard
-Can read minds
-Good with fighting
-Highly intelligent and learned (to where she knows how to do almost everything)
-Streetwise and sneaky
-Cannot die in the games, whereas everyone else, even Shepard, can
-Player is constantly steered into pursuing her romantically and has to work actively to avoid romance if it is not desired


Like, Miranda was engineered to be the perfect woman but even she has some weaknesses.

Well now I'm glad my Shepard dumped that bitch for Tali in the sequel.

Not to they still kinda force you in that direction in ME 3... even if you were like me and didn't pursue her romantically at all.

[Red Impact]

Jun 23, 2014 7:51:06 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave is Correct said:

Jun 23, 2014 3:07:47 GMT -5 MrBRulzOK said:

Well now I'm glad my Shepard dumped that bitch for Tali in the sequel.

Not to they still kinda force you in that direction in ME 3... even if you were like me and didn't pursue her romantically at all.

In ME 3 they kind of force your hand with everyone. My Shepherd had to push off pretty much everyone of the crew except for Vega and Garrus.

[Amazing Kitsune]

Walker: Texas Ranger

And it's awesome.