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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Aug 28, 2014 22:24:00 GMT -5
I've always been more annoyed by the announcers' immediate reaction to the heel turn. What we got was: *Hogan leg drops Savage Schiavone: Oh my God! Dusty: Is he the third man? Heenan: He's the third man! Dusty: What the hell is going on here? Heenan: Hulk Hogan has betrayed WCW! I would have preferred: *Hogan leg drops Savage Schiavone: *silence Dusty: *silence Heenan: *silence Sciavone: Oh .... my .... God Dusty: W ... T ... F Heenan: *** So replace Tony, Dusty and Bobby with Michael Cole, Lawler, and JBL?
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Shark
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Post by Shark on Aug 28, 2014 22:40:48 GMT -5
The reason it's silly that anyone has an issue with Heenan's line is that he said it and about 10-15 seconds later Hogan leg drops Savage. There's not even really enough time to think about Heenan's line, process it, and think "Oh my God Hogan's turning heel!" It's just a line Heenan said and if he'd known before he'd have just not said anything.
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Post by molson5 on Aug 28, 2014 23:36:08 GMT -5
The reason it's silly that anyone has an issue with Heenan's line is that he said it and about 10-15 seconds later Hogan leg drops Savage. There's not even really enough time to think about Heenan's line, process it, and think "Oh my God Hogan's turning heel!" It's just a line Heenan said and if he'd known before he'd have just not said anything. Ya, I don't get how something could be "ruined" 10-15 seconds early, even if Heenan did give something away (to people who weren't familiar with his Hogan shtick). Really, Hogan just walking out was a better potential shock value moment than the leg drop on savage. Hogan and Savage had fought a million times, Hogan leg-dropping him wasn't a particularly shocking image. The crazy thing was him just showing up, and then that promo afterwards.
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Zach
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Post by Zach on Aug 29, 2014 11:07:45 GMT -5
The thing I didn't like about it was the thought of Hogan turning heel was in no one's mind at the time, when Heenan said that, people started to think "hey wait a minute, what if it IS Hogan?!" Absolutely nobody thought this. This did not happen to a single viewer for reasons previously stated in this thread.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Aug 29, 2014 11:23:44 GMT -5
Absolutely nobody thought this. This did not happen to a single viewer for reasons previously stated in this thread. "I've toured around the world, from London to Dubai It's "Hammer, go Hammer, MC Hammer, yo, Hammer" And the rest can go and play." But seriously, absolutely nobody, not one single solitary person on the face of the planet, had the turn spoiled for them by that line. Not one. At all.
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Aug 29, 2014 11:36:49 GMT -5
It's been discussed to death on here. It was a terrible call by Heenan. That seed should not have been planted at all. He should have taken on the attitude that Dusty and Tony had where they were cheerleading and thanking Hogan. Heenan was supposedly not told that Hogan was turning. This doesn't fully excuse him. If he didn't know, he shouldn't have commented like that. Also, he should have suspected Hogan was turning. Tony did and he wasn't told specifically either. Tony talked about it with Jim Ross on his podcast this week. If I recall, Tony said he didn't know what Hogan was going to do. He heard he might be the third man, but had not agreed yet.
The angle still worked. It came off very well. But Heenan still screwed up.
Even WWE agrees because they have edited Heenan's commentary on multiple times, including on the recent Network release of The Monday Night Wars episode.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Aug 29, 2014 11:46:18 GMT -5
It's been discussed to death on here. It was a terrible call by Heenan. That seed should not have been planted at all. He should have taken on the attitude that Dusty and Tony had where they were cheerleading and thanking Hogan. Heenan was supposedly not told that Hogan was turning. This doesn't fully excuse him. If he didn't know, he shouldn't have commented like that. Also, he should have suspected Hogan was turning. Tony did and he wasn't told specifically either. Tony talked about it with Jim Ross on his podcast this week. If I recall, Tony said he didn't know what Hogan was going to do. He heard he might be the third man, but had not agreed yet. The angle still worked. It came off very well. But Heenan still screwed up. Even WWE agrees because they have edited Heenan's commentary on multiple times, including on the recent Network release of The Monday Night Wars episode. How does that make any sense? After 13 years of continuity, Heenan is supposed to suddenly cheer Hogan? After 13 years of always thinking the worst about the man, Heenan is supposed to think mybe he isn't so bad this time? What you're suggesting makes no sense, and the WWE has only edited it to specifically fit a narrative within a documentary context. It's not like that line is deleted from Network/CoD broadcasts of Bash '96. They aren't deleting it.
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Aug 29, 2014 11:53:33 GMT -5
It's been discussed to death on here. It was a terrible call by Heenan. That seed should not have been planted at all. He should have taken on the attitude that Dusty and Tony had where they were cheerleading and thanking Hogan. Heenan was supposedly not told that Hogan was turning. This doesn't fully excuse him. If he didn't know, he shouldn't have commented like that. Also, he should have suspected Hogan was turning. Tony did and he wasn't told specifically either. Tony talked about it with Jim Ross on his podcast this week. If I recall, Tony said he didn't know what Hogan was going to do. He heard he might be the third man, but had not agreed yet. The angle still worked. It came off very well. But Heenan still screwed up. Even WWE agrees because they have edited Heenan's commentary on multiple times, including on the recent Network release of The Monday Night Wars episode. How does that make any sense? After 13 years of continuity, Heenan is supposed to suddenly cheer Hogan? After 13 years of always thinking the worst about the man, Heenan is supposed to think mybe he isn't so bad this time? What you're suggesting makes no sense, and the WWE has only edited it to specifically fit a narrative within a documentary context. It's not like that line is deleted from Network/CoD broadcasts of Bash '96. They aren't deleting it. It was a terrible call. WWE keeps the line in tact if you go to the Network and watch the actual PPV, but they have edited it off before when they have shown the moment isolated. Bobby Heenan absolutely should not have said that. Is it overblown? Probably. The angle still came off great and led to the NWO which help lead to WCW's biggest boom period. I think Heenan should have played it like, "I never thought I'd say this, but thank you Hulk!" because he was in a weird position of wanting WCW to thwart off the rebel Outsiders. Heenan shouldn't have planted the seed at all that Hogan might turn. As a company, you don't put that idea out there at all right before it happens. But Heenan put it did put it out there right before it happened. That's why Dusty and Tony seem kind of panicked afterward. It may be overblown and talked about too much, but I do think Heenan shouldn't have made the comment.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Aug 29, 2014 11:57:44 GMT -5
How does that make any sense? After 13 years of continuity, Heenan is supposed to suddenly cheer Hogan? After 13 years of always thinking the worst about the man, Heenan is supposed to think mybe he isn't so bad this time? What you're suggesting makes no sense, and the WWE has only edited it to specifically fit a narrative within a documentary context. It's not like that line is deleted from Network/CoD broadcasts of Bash '96. They aren't deleting it. It was a terrible call. WWE keeps the line in tact if you go to the Network and watch the actual PPV, but they have edited it off before when they have shown the moment isolated. Bobby Heenan absolutely should not have said that. Is it overblown? Probably. The angle still came off great and led to the NWO which help lead to WCW's biggest boom period. I think Heenan should have played it like, "I never thought I'd say this, but thank you Hulk!" because he was in a weird position of wanting WCW to thwart off the rebel Outsiders. Heenan shouldn't have planted the seed at all that Hogan might turn. As a company, you don't put that idea out there at all right before it happens. But Heenan put it did put it out there right before it happened. That's why Dusty and Tony seem kind of panicked afterward. It may be overblown and talked about too much, but I do think Heenan shouldn't have made the comment. You don't see that line, which contradicts 13 years of character development, to be an even bigger giveaway that a turn was about to happen?
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Aug 29, 2014 12:02:46 GMT -5
It was a terrible call. WWE keeps the line in tact if you go to the Network and watch the actual PPV, but they have edited it off before when they have shown the moment isolated. Bobby Heenan absolutely should not have said that. Is it overblown? Probably. The angle still came off great and led to the NWO which help lead to WCW's biggest boom period. I think Heenan should have played it like, "I never thought I'd say this, but thank you Hulk!" because he was in a weird position of wanting WCW to thwart off the rebel Outsiders. Heenan shouldn't have planted the seed at all that Hogan might turn. As a company, you don't put that idea out there at all right before it happens. But Heenan put it did put it out there right before it happened. That's why Dusty and Tony seem kind of panicked afterward. It may be overblown and talked about too much, but I do think Heenan shouldn't have made the comment. You don't see that line, which contradicts 13 years of character development, to be an even bigger giveaway that a turn was about to happen? I would go with my idea before I'd go with what Heenan said. Some smarter fans might think Heenan saying that would give it away. You don't want ANY of the announcers, heel or not, to openly question what side Hogan is on in that moment.
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Vampiro138
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Post by Vampiro138 on Aug 29, 2014 12:11:49 GMT -5
yeah watching it live Heenan's line just made me go "shut the hell up Bobby, Hogan would never turn against wcw!!" basically I just took it as Bobby being his usual anti-hogan self.
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Post by chazraps on Aug 29, 2014 12:14:25 GMT -5
You don't see that line, which contradicts 13 years of character development, to be an even bigger giveaway that a turn was about to happen? I would go with my idea before I'd go with what Heenan said. Some smarter fans might think Heenan saying that would give it away. You don't want ANY of the announcers, heel or not, to openly question what side Hogan is on in that moment. Why not? That's what Heenan has done each and every time Hogan had been on-screen for over a decade. If anything, Heenan cheering Hogan would have run the risk of overshadowing the turn as you would have had a double turn, taking the focus off of Hogan and on to Heenan.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 12:32:49 GMT -5
It was a terrible call. WWE keeps the line in tact if you go to the Network and watch the actual PPV, but they have edited it off before when they have shown the moment isolated. Bobby Heenan absolutely should not have said that. Is it overblown? Probably. The angle still came off great and led to the NWO which help lead to WCW's biggest boom period. I think Heenan should have played it like, "I never thought I'd say this, but thank you Hulk!" because he was in a weird position of wanting WCW to thwart off the rebel Outsiders. Heenan shouldn't have planted the seed at all that Hogan might turn. As a company, you don't put that idea out there at all right before it happens. But Heenan put it did put it out there right before it happened. That's why Dusty and Tony seem kind of panicked afterward. It may be overblown and talked about too much, but I do think Heenan shouldn't have made the comment. You don't see that line, which contradicts 13 years of character development, to be an even bigger giveaway that a turn was about to happen? No, it wouldn't have been. Just because a character reacts one way for 13 years doesn't mean that it's destroying continuity for him to react a different way given the appropriate motivation. The Outsiders were being portrayed as a threat to the very existence of the company that Heenan was working for, thus it didn't make any sense for anyone who worked at that company to support the Outsiders or even have a neutral attitude toward them. For him to have been momentarily happy to see Hogan come to the rescue of the company that they both worked for would have been wonderful irony, and would not have necessitated that he suddenly become a life-long Hulkamaniac.
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Post by chazraps on Aug 29, 2014 13:33:27 GMT -5
You don't see that line, which contradicts 13 years of character development, to be an even bigger giveaway that a turn was about to happen? No, it wouldn't have been. Just because a character reacts one way for 13 years doesn't mean that it's destroying continuity for him to react a different way given the appropriate motivation. The Outsiders were being portrayed as a threat to the very existence of the company that Heenan was working for, thus it didn't make any sense for anyone who worked at that company to support the Outsiders or even have a neutral attitude toward them. For him to have been momentarily happy to see Hogan come to the rescue of the company that they both worked for would have been wonderful irony, and would not have necessitated that he suddenly become a life-long Hulkamaniac. Doesn't make sense he'd root for Hogan over the Outsiders, especially considering the then-recent angle of Heenan brokering the New Japan challenge six months prior where Heenan had no allegiance to his company and just follows where the money is. Even in the months to follow they went this route with Heenan sucking up to the nWo. Plus Heenan cheered Iraqi-sympathizer Sgt. Slaughter over Hogan. Heenan suddenly cheering for Hogan, or even a bit of momentary zeal, would have ruined the moment far worse. How would Heenan react after cheering for Hogan once Hogan turned? It would have removed the gravity of the situation and made it a comedy bit like the Piper-Flair-Roberts Rumble '92 commentary bit. Seriously, to bemoan Heenan's "but whose side is he on line" as anything but the only thing Heenan could have possibly said requires removing every single bit of context surrounding the moment itself. It was absolutely the right thing for Heenan to say.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 14:04:22 GMT -5
No, it wouldn't have been. Just because a character reacts one way for 13 years doesn't mean that it's destroying continuity for him to react a different way given the appropriate motivation. The Outsiders were being portrayed as a threat to the very existence of the company that Heenan was working for, thus it didn't make any sense for anyone who worked at that company to support the Outsiders or even have a neutral attitude toward them. For him to have been momentarily happy to see Hogan come to the rescue of the company that they both worked for would have been wonderful irony, and would not have necessitated that he suddenly become a life-long Hulkamaniac. Doesn't make sense he'd root for Hogan over the Outsiders, especially considering the then-recent angle of Heenan brokering the New Japan challenge six months prior where Heenan had no allegiance to his company and just follows where the money is. Even in the months to follow they went this route with Heenan sucking up to the nWo. Plus Heenan cheered Iraqi-sympathizer Sgt. Slaughter over Hogan. Heenan suddenly cheering for Hogan, or even a bit of momentary zeal, would have ruined the moment far worse. How would Heenan react after cheering for Hogan once Hogan turned? It would have removed the gravity of the situation and made it a comedy bit like the Piper-Flair-Roberts Rumble '92 commentary bit. Seriously, to bemoan Heenan's "but whose side is he on line" as anything but the only thing Heenan could have possibly said requires removing every single bit of context surrounding the moment itself. It was absolutely the right thing for Heenan to say. I see where you're coming from that suddenly being happy to see him would not have fit within the context of his conduct over the previous months, but honestly none of his actions over those months really made any sense. Just saying "he's a heel who hates Hogan" doesn't instantly make any of that behavior logical. For Heenan to have been happy to see Hogan come out to fight the Outsiders would not have necessarily required any change in his attitude or feelings toward Hogan. It would have simply meant that there were circumstances that took priority over that old rivalry, namely a couple of guys who were there to kill the company that mailed him a fat paycheck every month. Heenan recognizing that the Outsiders were the immediate threat would have lent more gravity to the situation, much more so than his ignoring all of that just to act spiteful toward the man who SEEMED to be rushing out to save all of their bacon just because of an old grudge. Don't forget, this was the same time when mortal enemies like the Horsemen, the Dungeon of Doom, and WCW babyfaces were putting their animosity aside to join forces against the hostile takeover.
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Post by mrtumoursmisery on Aug 29, 2014 14:27:52 GMT -5
Again, Heenan could've said something disparaging about Hogan without hinting at the possible twist. As others have suggested, he could've accused Hogan of being a glory hog. Or, he could've said something like, "I've always said that Hogan has less brains than brawn." Anything along those lines would've been fine. It's not as though the only alternative to, "But, whose side is he on?" was to become a Hogan cheerleader.
The problem is that Heenan supposedly didn't know that the twist was coming. It's difficult to blame him with that in mind.
Just to clarify, I don't think that Heenan ruined the moment, and I don't particularly care one way or another. But, I do think that his call was a bit awkward.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 15:08:59 GMT -5
Again, Heenan could've said something disparaging about Hogan without hinting at the possible twist. As others have suggested, he could've accused Hogan of being a glory hog. Or, he could've said something like, "I've always said that Hogan has less brains than brawn." Anything along those lines would've been fine. It's not as though the only alternative to, "But, whose side is he on?" was to become a Hogan cheerleader. The problem is that Heenan supposedly didn't know that the twist was coming. It's difficult to blame him with that in mind. Just to clarify, I don't think that Heenan ruined the moment, and I don't particularly care one way or another. But, I do think that his call was a bit awkward. Agreed. Did it hurt the angle? Of course not. Could his reaction have been better? Of course, but it was live television. It's interesting to discuss things like this but in the end it doesn't really matter. I for one miss the days when commentators reactions were real instead of everything being so polished up and fed to them through an earpiece.
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Post by horsemen4ever on Aug 29, 2014 20:25:04 GMT -5
Well if Heenan gave at Bash at the Beach 96, well I think when the 4th Nwo member joined The Giant, one can say Mike Tennay did the same thing. The labor day 1996 episode of Nitro, right before The Giant said "Thank god for the Giant" and I knew right there and than what was going to happen.
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Blindkarevik
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Post by Blindkarevik on Aug 31, 2014 2:01:47 GMT -5
I've said my piece on this many times in the past. The call was Heenan being Heenan. What it DID set up though was the fact that the NWO was a thing that wasn't going away. There were faces, there were heels, and then there were the NWO. Heenan being right about Hogan turned the tide from announcers like Heenan from having to cheer and apologize for the heels, as well as boo and lie about the faces... to a common ground all announcers could have. Heenan hates Hacksaw Jim Duggan, Tony loves him... but they can both hate the NWO. It added a third layer to how the announcers could call a match. One night, Heenan is claiming Sting cheated against Ric Flair... the next, he's cheering Sting to kick Scott Hall's ass and it didn't feel out of place.
Really, Heenan saying this opened the door for this new paradigm. As after years and years of Heenan's gimmick being absurdly, completely and totally wrong about the kind of man Hogan (and the epitome of faces) was.... face announcers had no choice but to agree with him and kinda heel out against the NWO. I say "heel out" because you'd hear stuff from Tony that would basically sound heelish in nature as the ends justified the means, stuff like... "Let's empty the entire locker room and kick all the NWO's butts!" If a face blatantly cheated to get the upper hand over the NWO, it was all good because "They'd do the same to us."
In a way, had Heenan not said it and not been completely blown away that he was right for once. If they truly didn't know that Hogan was the third man, it may have really pissed Heenan off.. not knowing if he should start cheering FOR the NWO as they're the biggest heels there. Heenan's blatant dislike for Hogan, regardless of his decisions, made it so fans knew... like I said earlier... there were faces, there were heels, and then there were the NWO who were beyond either of the two.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Aug 31, 2014 2:10:25 GMT -5
I happened to be watching live that night. I followed the Outsiders close enough to know the 3rd man was that night, but I'd never ever call myself a WCW fan, probably the first PPV of theirs I'd seen in years. When Okerlund said he recognized the voice, I thought, "He'd know Hogan's voice". Hogan being a heel to my, 13 year old self, was such a stupid thought, I may have as well had the thought, "You know, if Pamela Anderson met me, I'd bet we get married. Like right now. Not when I'm older, just this second". If Heenan had screamed "Hogan is the 3rd man!!!!" I still would have been ever bit as shocked and surprised. No way that happens. Yet it did.
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