The Unconquered Sun
King Koopa
He has no pants! What a heathen!
Lord of Storms and Kittens!
Posts: 11,548
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Post by The Unconquered Sun on Sept 1, 2014 9:45:54 GMT -5
They're still inducting people in every years, so the chances that "wrestler X" will be inducted are pretty good. this cancels out the Koko got in argument. When it was announced that he was being inducted the kid in me that watched him back in the day was overjoyed. Almost 30 years later and he can still make a fan smile, you tell me how he doesn't deserve to be in the HoF?
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Post by papagiorgio on Sept 1, 2014 9:56:22 GMT -5
I don't even see him as mid-card. The guy was a jobber to the stars. He rarely won against anyone of significance. I can't remember a memorable feud he was in. He got on a few Wrestlemania cards, but so did most wrestlers back then who weren't 100% jobbers. The Piledriver album is probably his biggest claim to fame.
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Post by papagiorgio on Sept 1, 2014 9:56:48 GMT -5
I don't even see him as mid-card. The guy was a jobber to the stars. He rarely won against anyone of significance. I can't remember a memorable feud he was in. He got on a few Wrestlemania cards, but so did most wrestlers back then who weren't 100% jobbers. The Piledriver album is probably his biggest claim to fame.
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Post by cabbageboy on Sept 1, 2014 10:07:49 GMT -5
It's interesting to hear the comparisons to the baseball HOF since there are in fact undeserving baseball HOF guys, but even then the dubious HOFers in baseball were great players for a few years that just didn't have sustained careers (Rube Marquard, Earle Combs, etc.). Compare to Koko B. Ware however. The guy was never especially great and this is coming from someone who used to like the guy.
Here's the litmus test: If Koko Ware wasn't in the HOF, would anyone seriously be angry that he wasn't in? Are people frustrated that he IS in?
If WWE wants their HOF to be anything more than a joke there has to be some kind of vetting. If nothing else put out a series of names and let fans vote, 70% and you are in. Maybe have a veteran's committee for older names fans aren't familiar with.
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Post by cabbageboy on Sept 1, 2014 10:08:08 GMT -5
Double post.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 1, 2014 10:12:11 GMT -5
Championship gold and major PPV wins mean next to nothing when determining a truly good/great wrestler.
Why?
Because wrestling is fake.
I wouldn't want a guy with a career .700 OPS and a mediocre glove getting into the baseball Hall of Fame, but baseball is a real sport with outcomes that aren't predetermined. Whether you are "the best of the best" or not will be reflected in your stats and accomplishments.
Meanwhile, some of the all time greatest pro wrestlers have been complete midcarders, but they contributed to the act and did their jobs really, really well. Koko was asked to be a JTTS, but good Lord did he do it well, and good Lord was he over. He's still one of the names that gets thrown around by people who grew up in that era.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 1, 2014 10:13:09 GMT -5
But again, baseball's a real sport with set criteria.
Wrestling's a make believe sport, any metric you'd wanna use would be nebulous and vary from person to person anyway.
Him or anyone getting in isn't an affront to anyone, at least it shouldn't be. It's more a "hey that's neat, I liked that guy."
Plus, jobbers aren't scrubs in the same way that a mediocre player in baseball or whatever would be. Jobbers have a clearly defined role. Like say if they inducted the Brawler. That'd be totally cool-- "Well he was a jobber, all they had him do was lose." That's exactly what he was paid to do.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 1, 2014 10:38:21 GMT -5
Wrestling should be judged in the same vein as an entertainment hall of fame, not a sports one (although there are people in the MLB Hall of Fame that make Koko look like Stone Cold, hoorah for cronyism). In that vein, you should look at what effect they had on their time, not their in ring success. Koko had much more longevity than Ryder did, and bringing titles into it is not reliable for reasons already well established.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 10:42:20 GMT -5
See, that's just it. He wasn't that over. He was no more over than say Zack Ryder has been. And Zack at least has held titles, where Koko's gold count was zero. Jake Roberts' gold count was zero, too. Titles weren't handed out like candy back then. I'd say the fact that people still fondly remember Koko 20+ years since his last WWE days mean he is worthy of a spot in the Hall. Exactly this. The fact that Ryder has held titles and Koko B. Ware hasn't says much, much more about the belts' credibility than Koko's.
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Post by dangerousdanpotato on Sept 1, 2014 11:00:41 GMT -5
I think Koko has a little more recognition factor than people give him credit for. A lot of my super-casual wrestling fan friends who maybe saw a couple of PPVs in the late 80s / early 90s will usually include Koko as one of the more memorable performers. He had a great ring name andlook and a lot of natural charisma.
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Post by The Shareholder is nude on Sept 1, 2014 11:01:26 GMT -5
DAMN thats a good match....
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keezy
Dennis Stamp
full time slacker
Posts: 4,621
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Post by keezy on Sept 1, 2014 11:45:00 GMT -5
Is Nikolai Volkoff any better of a name than Koko? His only real claim to fame was teaming with Iron Shiek and being on the Rock n' Wrestling cartoon.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 11:55:38 GMT -5
Fans still remember him, he was always in a featured spot on big cards even without significant feuds, and he hasn't pissed anyone off by being obnoxious backstage.
I agree, I honestly don't see the problem with the Hall of Fame not containing solely legendary main eventers, know why? Because if that's the case the kayfabe Hall of Fame wouldn't feature 2/3 of the people it has already if you want to get ultra picky.
The HoF show is one of the few things the WWE still books like an old show, you get your womens wrestler, you usually get a guy with a good tag run going in, you get your celebrity or lower card comedy act, and you get one or two big main event feature legends. That's it, the HoF is recognition from backstage staff and a way for the WWE to make more dollars from those of us who go to Wrestlemania weekends. That's it, that's all, and for that reason I don't honestly know why wrestling fans get so picky about it all.
Like, in ten years time if Brodus got in as the comedy act spot due to his charisma/confidence in talking I'd not begrudge him that, same for Ryder, and people like Koko were MUCH bigger than them.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 1, 2014 11:58:39 GMT -5
It's interesting to hear the comparisons to the baseball HOF since there are in fact undeserving baseball HOF guys, but even then the dubious HOFers in baseball were great players for a few years that just didn't have sustained careers (Rube Marquard, Earle Combs, etc.). Compare to Koko B. Ware however. The guy was never especially great and this is coming from someone who used to like the guy. Honestly, even that's not true of Cooperstown. A lot of those players got into the HoF only because they were teammates with Frankie Frisch, who headed the veteran's committee. That's it. Many of them weren't even great players in their own time, Jesse Haines got MVP votes 1 year of his career and finished 8th. If you were slightly above average, being a teammate of Frisch was an even more surefire way of getting into a Hall of Fame than being Vince McMahon's personal ball washer. It was bad enough that it launched a big scandal and the rules had to be changed. If these players were great for a few years and just werent' sustained, it wouldn't have been nearly as big of a deal as it was. Others, like Herb Pennock, were average pitchers at best, but happened to be lucky enough to fall into great teams later in their career. When you have Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig, it's easy to look better than you are, but his career stats were bad even for his era. Cooperstown is probably the worst example of a sports HoF when talking about it's inductees all deserving to be in, because politicking filled it's halls with people who never deserved to be mentioned in the MVP discussion of their own era, much less listed among the greats of the game.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 1, 2014 12:10:32 GMT -5
He was a fine wrestler, trusted to make guys look good, had a distinct and popular gimmick, was charismatic in promos, wrestled during the WWF's golden era, and was more over than 90% of the present roster.
No doubt about it.
A deserved Hall of Famer.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Sept 1, 2014 13:10:16 GMT -5
The guy was over and memorable in WWF's most successful and famous era. Why not him? Only the best were champions back then
What bothers me more is people saying Benoit should be in it. What other line of work would this apply? "This guy knowingly killed his son but he was one of the best electricians in the biz so who cares!"
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,073
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Post by TGM on Sept 1, 2014 13:37:21 GMT -5
It's interesting to hear the comparisons to the baseball HOF since there are in fact undeserving baseball HOF guys, but even then the dubious HOFers in baseball were great players for a few years that just didn't have sustained careers (Rube Marquard, Earle Combs, etc.). Compare to Koko B. Ware however. The guy was never especially great and this is coming from someone who used to like the guy. Here's the litmus test: If Koko Ware wasn't in the HOF, would anyone seriously be angry that he wasn't in? Are people frustrated that he IS in? If WWE wants their HOF to be anything more than a joke there has to be some kind of vetting. If nothing else put out a series of names and let fans vote, 70% and you are in. Maybe have a veteran's committee for older names fans aren't familiar with. Us smart ass fans would end up voting in Bo Dallas.
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Post by Hit Girl on Sept 1, 2014 13:50:57 GMT -5
I forgot to mention, he was a pretty decent singer and dancer too, so yeah, extra reasons for him to rightly be a Hall of Famer.
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DjZonk
Don Corleone
Where's my cat?
Posts: 1,325
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Post by DjZonk on Sept 1, 2014 14:17:16 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that anybody with a hasbro action figure should go in the HOF.
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The Heenan Family
Unicron
I'm a legend in this sport. If you don't believe me, ask me.
Posts: 2,569
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Post by The Heenan Family on Sept 1, 2014 15:20:14 GMT -5
Chris Von Erich is the bottom of the WWE Hall of Fame. His brother Mike is just one spot above him. They had no real success in wrestling let alone WWE. Mike might have siphoned some cheers off his brothers during a few tag matches but that's it.
There are others too who I'd say are below Koko though I won't say they are completely undeserving. Johnny Rodz was a jobber to the stars and did his job well, only he didn't have the colorful gimmick or mainstream appeal that Koko had during his career. He certainly didn't sell merchandise for WWE. James Dudley worked backstage for WWE in D.C. handling the gate, but he wasn't a partner or a big promoter. Loyal employee yes, but I'm sure Janice from accounting was loyal too. It certainly looks odd that he's in the Hall of Fame and guys like Toots Mondt and Willie Gilzenberg are not.
I'd say Koko is on par with Mae Young. People love Mae, but she was maybe the 9th greatest female wrestler of her era. Think about that. Female wrestling wasn't exactly the main event but a special attraction. So essentially she was inducted for her raunchy behavior in the attitude era. Which was memorable, but certainly not far and above anything Koko did with his bird and singing.
Yes Koko is near the bottom of those that could be considered Hall of Famers, but he still crosses the threshold. I think people do not realize just how many unsuccessful wrestlers there have been over the past 100 years. Names you have never heard of because of that very reason. Names you have heard of like Tor Kamata and Big Bully Busick that don't even come close to Koko's level.
There will be more Koko level of inductions though. Be prepared for Hillbilly Jim and the Nasty Boys. There are guys near that level who will never be inducted because WWE doesn't have enough footage of them anymore, they're dead, or they were part of an era which was too long ago to make money off of now. Guys like Newton Tattrie who was one half of the Mongols. That may have been WWE's greatest tag team of the 60s. Guys like Miguel Perez and Waldo Von Erich will never be inducted though they were just as successful and Baron Mikel Scicluna.
It could be worse though. They could start giving spots at the ceremony to induct buildings.
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