"Magic" Mark Hurr
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Here, have some chili dogs
Not related to Phantasmo
Posts: 16,038
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Sept 13, 2014 7:26:52 GMT -5
There was a really good issue of Spider-Man after Civil War where Spidey confronted the Kingpin after Aunt May was shot and just effortlessly beat the absolute shit out of Fisk while stating "Yeah, if I wasn't holding back for fear of killing you in two seconds? I COULD KILL YOU IN TWO SECONDS." I always have that issue in mind when the more...ardent Batfans insist "prep time" would enable Batman to defeat anyone. Then look at how Octavius used the Spider-powers. He was a damn wrecking ball, and he was still using his head more than Parker. Superior Spider-Man and Agent Venom. It's like my love for Spider-Man comics was reborn. And by the way, Cap would give Batman that work.
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Goldenbane
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THE G.D. Goldenbane
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Post by Goldenbane on Sept 13, 2014 8:26:29 GMT -5
They can say they had this planned out before Batman vs. Spider-Man till they are blue in the face, but I just can't help but feel they did this to stop the complaints from the Batfans. Cause look at how lame and quick the battle was. It's like they didn't put much effort into it. This should have been the Batman Death Battle in the first place. Batman vs. Spider-Man should NEVER had happen to begin with. Who the hell, beyond the most delusional of Batfan, thought Batman would win that fight? There was a really good issue of Spider-Man after Civil War where Spidey confronted the Kingpin after Aunt May was shot and just effortlessly beat the absolute shit out of Fisk while stating "Yeah, if I wasn't holding back for fear of killing you in two seconds? I COULD KILL YOU IN TWO SECONDS." I always have that issue in mind when the more...ardent Batfans insist "prep time" would enable Batman to defeat anyone. I decided to look up images of this book, to see what you were talking about and HOLY CRAP!! I haven't seen an ass kicking like that since Thor beat the crap out of Iron Man shortly after his return!
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Post by Michael Coello on Sept 13, 2014 13:34:49 GMT -5
See, I liked the old 60's era explanation that says Batman just lucks out a lot and pretends to do it intentionally.
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Sept 13, 2014 13:55:01 GMT -5
All the debate about Batman being able to do anything just makes me apreciate the West years even more. Yeah he still had a plan for every conceivable outcome but at least that was done for comedic purposes.
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Crimson
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Posts: 6,511
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Post by Crimson on Sept 13, 2014 16:15:31 GMT -5
I love Batman but he really is the HHH of the comic world at times. Dude, not even Triple H is that powerful. I love Bats (though Nightwing's cooler) but he's a damn male Mary Sue. Wait I've got the ultimate battle: Batman vs Wolverine Yeah I think of all comicbook characters, Wolverine still holds top claim to being Mary Sue supreme.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,053
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Post by dav on Sept 13, 2014 16:18:11 GMT -5
Always seemed to me that Captain America is a Mary Sue. Guy is always placed in the right, everyone loves him and he's perfect in pretty much everything in the stories I've read. Maybe not on the scale of Batman or Wolverine but it is present.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 13, 2014 16:48:04 GMT -5
Always seemed to me that Captain America is a Mary Sue. Guy is always placed in the right, everyone loves him and he's perfect in pretty much everything in the stories I've read. Maybe not on the scale of Batman or Wolverine but it is present. Captain America #321 In this issue, he's trying to stop Ultimatum terrorists from killing hostages. He underestimates them, and has to use his shield on one; but the other opens fire on the crowd. The only thing he can do is sacrifice his ideals been gunning down the other terrorist. It shakes him up, and is played out where people trust him a lil bit less. While he saved most of the hostages, he feels like he's failed both himself and those that view him as a role model. In the story Streets of Poison, he accidentally inhales a drug called Ice, that drives him a little crazy. He's more brutal, makes many mistakes--including beating the shit out of Daredevil who was trying to help him. In Under Siege, Avengers Mansion is overrun by the Masters of Evil, and Cap is captured and tortured; and pretty well helpless for 3/4ths of the story. Cap isn't a Mary Sue.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,053
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Post by dav on Sept 13, 2014 18:29:25 GMT -5
Always seemed to me that Captain America is a Mary Sue. Guy is always placed in the right, everyone loves him and he's perfect in pretty much everything in the stories I've read. Maybe not on the scale of Batman or Wolverine but it is present. Captain America #321 In this issue, he's trying to stop Ultimatum terrorists from killing hostages. He underestimates them, and has to use his shield on one; but the other opens fire on the crowd. The only thing he can do is sacrifice his ideals been gunning down the other terrorist. It shakes him up, and is played out where people trust him a lil bit less. While he saved most of the hostages, he feels like he's failed both himself and those that view him as a role model. In the story Streets of Poison, he accidentally inhales a drug called Ice, that drives him a little crazy. He's more brutal, makes many mistakes--including beating the shit out of Daredevil who was trying to help him. In Under Siege, Avengers Mansion is overrun by the Masters of Evil, and Cap is captured and tortured; and pretty well helpless for 3/4ths of the story. Cap isn't a Mary Sue. You could really point to similar stories for Batman (Knightfall, No Man's Land, The Cult etc.) to show that he isn't a Mary Sue either. The way a character is constantly presented makes them a Mary Sue and Captain American eeks around that quite a lot from what I've seen of him.
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AFN: Judge Shred
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wanted to change his doohicky.
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Posts: 18,221
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on Sept 13, 2014 19:39:02 GMT -5
Captain America #321 In this issue, he's trying to stop Ultimatum terrorists from killing hostages. He underestimates them, and has to use his shield on one; but the other opens fire on the crowd. The only thing he can do is sacrifice his ideals been gunning down the other terrorist. It shakes him up, and is played out where people trust him a lil bit less. While he saved most of the hostages, he feels like he's failed both himself and those that view him as a role model. In the story Streets of Poison, he accidentally inhales a drug called Ice, that drives him a little crazy. He's more brutal, makes many mistakes--including beating the shit out of Daredevil who was trying to help him. In Under Siege, Avengers Mansion is overrun by the Masters of Evil, and Cap is captured and tortured; and pretty well helpless for 3/4ths of the story. Cap isn't a Mary Sue. You could really point to similar stories for Batman (Knightfall, No Man's Land, The Cult etc.) to show that he isn't a Mary Sue either. The way a character is constantly presented makes them a Mary Sue and Captain American eeks around that quite a lot from what I've seen of him. The thing with Cap, he was made to be an ideal. To be a shining beacon of doing what is right. It is etched in to his character that most of the time he is either right, or standing up for what he believes in. That is where a lot of his conflict comes from. And while he has balls of steel he can and does lose a lot of battles, especially against people he shouldn't beat.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 13, 2014 20:24:14 GMT -5
I think Wolverine has had definite cheesecake moments, I don't know if I'd classify Batman or Captain America as true Mary Sues aside from any moment where Batman beats Superman.
The thing about "always having a plan" is that the plans often don't rely on a gadget or his own abilities, but using others to achieve his goals. He can't just go and beat anyone he wants, he just knows how to work and what gives him the best chance to succeed if worst comes to worst. The only real bad part is the whole "being a master in everything at 30" that he has going for him, but to be fair, that's not unique to him, that's a problem in entertainment in general. There's still conflict and question on whether Batman can win some fights, and even if it's taking advantage of villain stupidity, the initial failure and return with a better plan precludes him from being a true Mary Sue in my mind. A true one would just pull a new power or gadget out of his ass in the first fight and win.
Captain America and Superman are in the same vein to me. They're seen as being in the right as far as justice and morality go because they're the big blue boyscouts. What makes them not Sues is that not everyone agrees with them. Their ideals get seen as out of date and clashes with a lot of good guys who think that they need a different approach. Civil War could have been a perfect example if Marvel didn't seemingly decide to take sides, because it would have shown a great instance where Cap was, you know, not right. But they had to destroy Reed and Tony to make him right which turned it into a big mess.
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Post by RI Richmark on Sept 13, 2014 21:10:16 GMT -5
Changing topics slightly, I would like to see some iconic comic villians fight like Dr. Doom vs Lex Luthor or Joker vs Green Goblin.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 13, 2014 21:25:18 GMT -5
Changing topics slightly, I would like to see some iconic comic villians fight like Dr. Doom vs Lex Luthor or Joker vs Green Goblin. I like the idea, but I don't know if I like the DC heroes in either matchup there. Goblin should curb-stomp Joker. Goblin has tons of firepower in his glider, more than Joker ever did, and Joker has... a comically large flag shooting gun and an acid-spitting flower. Green Goblin is a hard one to match up against, because all of the most well known DC villains should be extremely onesided. Luthor is probably the best matchup for him, due to their firepower. Doom stomps Luthor simply by being Dr. Freakin' Doom. Also, super-powerful mage in addition to the super-technological suit. He and Luthor meet with intelligence and technology, but I don't think Luthor has any means to neutralize the magic. Also, he's Dr. Freakin' Doom, in case I didn't say it before. I think Doom against someone like Amazo could be fun though. I know he's not a villain anymore, but Deathstroke vs. Winter Soldier would be fun. I have to imagine that Thanos vs. Darkseid is going to happen though, just a matter ofwhen.
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andrew8798
FANatic
on 24/7 this month
Posts: 106,084
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Post by andrew8798 on Sept 13, 2014 21:27:51 GMT -5
Hate this Batman always win junk
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Sept 13, 2014 21:37:45 GMT -5
Batmans so-called Mary Sueness seems to come from the batfans if anything else. As mentioned above he has shown weakness, made several mistakes and his ideals frequently clash with other heroes. Granted there ARE comics where he's written like a Mary Sue, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a single comic book character in history who hasn't been written like that at some point.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Sept 13, 2014 21:47:23 GMT -5
I think Wolverine has had definite cheesecake moments, I don't know if I'd classify Batman or Captain America as true Mary Sues aside from any moment where Batman beats Superman. The thing about "always having a plan" is that the plans often don't rely on a gadget or his own abilities, but using others to achieve his goals. He can't just go and beat anyone he wants, he just knows how to work and what gives him the best chance to succeed if worst comes to worst. The only real bad part is the whole "being a master in everything at 30" that he has going for him, but to be fair, that's not unique to him, that's a problem in entertainment in general. There's still conflict and question on whether Batman can win some fights, and even if it's taking advantage of villain stupidity, the initial failure and return with a better plan precludes him from being a true Mary Sue in my mind. A true one would just pull a new power or gadget out of his ass in the first fight and win. Captain America and Superman are in the same vein to me. They're seen as being in the right as far as justice and morality go because they're the big blue boyscouts. What makes them not Sues is that not everyone agrees with them. Their ideals get seen as out of date and clashes with a lot of good guys who think that they need a different approach. Civil War could have been a perfect example if Marvel didn't seemingly decide to take sides, because it would have shown a great instance where Cap was, you know, not right. But they had to destroy Reed and Tony to make him right which turned it into a big mess. The closest I've seen Batman be a Sue in actually official DC media is The Brave & the Bold, where he is clearly presented as having an edge over all the other heroes. But even then he still needs help with fighting some villains.
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Goldenbane
Hank Scorpio
THE G.D. Goldenbane
Posts: 7,331
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Post by Goldenbane on Sept 13, 2014 23:02:58 GMT -5
I think Wolverine has had definite cheesecake moments, I don't know if I'd classify Batman or Captain America as true Mary Sues aside from any moment where Batman beats Superman. The thing about "always having a plan" is that the plans often don't rely on a gadget or his own abilities, but using others to achieve his goals. He can't just go and beat anyone he wants, he just knows how to work and what gives him the best chance to succeed if worst comes to worst. The only real bad part is the whole "being a master in everything at 30" that he has going for him, but to be fair, that's not unique to him, that's a problem in entertainment in general. There's still conflict and question on whether Batman can win some fights, and even if it's taking advantage of villain stupidity, the initial failure and return with a better plan precludes him from being a true Mary Sue in my mind. A true one would just pull a new power or gadget out of his ass in the first fight and win. Captain America and Superman are in the same vein to me. They're seen as being in the right as far as justice and morality go because they're the big blue boyscouts. What makes them not Sues is that not everyone agrees with them. Their ideals get seen as out of date and clashes with a lot of good guys who think that they need a different approach. Civil War could have been a perfect example if Marvel didn't seemingly decide to take sides, because it would have shown a great instance where Cap was, you know, not right. But they had to destroy Reed and Tony to make him right which turned it into a big mess. The closest I've seen Batman be a Sue in actually official DC media is The Brave & the Bold, where he is clearly presented as having an edge over all the other heroes. But even then he still needs help with fighting some villains. Well, Batman is extremely Mary Sue-ish in most of the Frank Miller books (All Star Batman and Robin being probably the worst). Also, in "Act of God" it's extremely heavily implied that only Batman's methods are the right ones for fighting crime. Every character has their powers taken away, and even the tech-heroes who aren't Batman (Blue Beetle, Steel, ect) are either killed or instantly have all their technology stolen. It's hard to really call Batman and Sue in that story as he wasn't honestly a major player...buuuuut, the books are so obviously one huge penis sucking love letter to the character, that he might as well just be an all knowing, all powerful Mary Sue.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 13, 2014 23:13:39 GMT -5
The closest I've seen Batman be a Sue in actually official DC media is The Brave & the Bold, where he is clearly presented as having an edge over all the other heroes. But even then he still needs help with fighting some villains. Well, Batman is extremely Mary Sue-ish in most of the Frank Miller books (All Star Batman and Robin being probably the worst). Also, in "Act of God" it's extremely heavily implied that only Batman's methods are the right ones for fighting crime. Every character has their powers taken away, and even the tech-heroes who aren't Batman (Blue Beetle, Steel, ect) are either killed or instantly have all their technology stolen. It's hard to really call Batman and Sue in that story as he wasn't honestly a major player...buuuuut, the books are so obviously one huge penis sucking love letter to the character, that he might as well just be an all knowing, all powerful Mary Sue. To be fair, Most of Frank Miller's protagonists tend to be Mary Sues. It's like he had a finite ability to write flawed heroes, and used it all up with Daredevil.
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AFN: Judge Shred
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wanted to change his doohicky.
Member of The Bluetista Buyers Club
Posts: 18,221
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on Sept 13, 2014 23:16:47 GMT -5
Batmans so-called Mary Sueness seems to come from the batfans if anything else. As mentioned above he has shown weakness, made several mistakes and his ideals frequently clash with other heroes. Granted there ARE comics where he's written like a Mary Sue, but I'm pretty sure there isn't a single comic book character in history who hasn't been written like that at some point. Very true. Batfans can be some of the most irritating around.
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